to go to church to get DS into a better school

[ilovejesus]

We live in the centre of a big city, near some badly rated schools. The faith schools are, of course, much better.

I am an atheist and so is DH. We both think the current system is appalling, but I am prepared to start going to church in order to get DS into a better school when the time comes (he's 2). DH is strongly against this, saying it's unethical. I think the whole bloody system is unethical, but until the system is changed, I don't want to ruin DD's future over it. He's also morally against sending her private (not that we could afford it), and I am too.

So as not to drip feed, my problem with the schools is not the teaching which I'm sure is fine, it's the low expectations set for these children. Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards. There's nothing wrong with that but I want more for DD. We both went to good unis and have professional jobs.

AIBU to go to church with my fingers crossed, and if not, how do I convince DH?

Sorry about the underlining, i was trying to do italics.

bakingtins of course I wouldn't disown my children if they were christians, that was a joke. And thanks for the suggestion but I don't have time to go and visit schools and see how I can improve them. Isn't that someone's actual job?

ComposHat exactly! I wish school places were allocated based on juggling skill, DH is very good at it and has no moral objection. Plus DS really likes it.

RiverTam There are open places for no, or other, religion, but the schools are so over-subscribed we'd have no chance.

bom Thanks for that article. What a bonkers idea.

ClockWatchingLady AWESOME BURN.

I am really sure the OP was joking when she said she would disown her kids if they became Christian.

If the local schools were really bad I think I might be tempted to go to church for a year even though I am atheist.

I strongly object to state funded religious schools that exclude children based on their parents religion. It's a ridiculous archaic arrangement. I am so glad it didn't effect me personally as I would be furious if my child was excluded from a school purely based on my beliefs.

Actually a school I may have had some dealings with (not as a parent) LOVED non-faith kids because they were seen as ripe for conversion! I think the faith to non-faith ratio was 10:1.

Now that is fairly unethical IMO.

I couldn't bring myself to do it but if you can cope with the impact it is likely to have on your DD - why not?

I'm agnostic and unsympathetic to faith holders who 'lose' places. State-funded education should be wholly secular. Pay for the faith bits if you want.

Oh and arf at Gove "raising standards"!!!!

I wouldn't be prepared to do this. Some schools criteria is much tighter than once a month. We looked at a school where you had to attend one specific church in the area (not any old Christian church) and also have a baptism/christening certificate C of E. We are not CofE (other denominations) and didn't want to attend that particular church. It would make me really uncomfortable to go along there when it didn't chime with the type of place I'd like to worship.

At primary school, I don't think the schools are that different, some a bit better, some a little less, but not worth faking belief for really. Also, my experience is that some children get very into the whole religious thing, if taught about Jesus, God and praying. I don't mind that, I think it is their choice, their beliefs and not for me to comment on but obviously this may be one consequence of attending a faith school (though I'm sure most don't). If your children see you mimicking belief, they may not 'get' that they are not supposed to believe, this is an age they often take things very literally.

You're not prepared to visit these other s hools because you've already made your mind up. The sneering way you speak about them speaks volumes.

I'm with your husband to be honest. If you go ahead with this I hope the schools you wouldn't give a chance to go from strength to strength and the one you lied and cheated your way into goes into special measures.

And you obviously decided you were not BU before you even began the thread.

I would absolutely do this in a heartbeat.
Being a good parent is doing the best you can for your DC and education and peer group are enormously influential in determining your child's life chances.

At primary school I don't think the schools are that different

Thenapoleon - I don't know whereabouts you are, and I'm glad to hear that in your experience that is the case. However, there's a world of difference between some primary schools here in London, even in the same area.

Wow smarty. That does seem like a lot to have to do to get your child baptised.

OP I wouldn't worry about the parents wearing pyjamas on the morning school run, it's if they are still wearing them on the afternoon school run I'd be more concerned.

This is rampant where I am.

Do check the criteria VERY carefully. Our local Church of England school requires church attendance for a minimum of 2 years prior to admissions applications deadline. Which means if you turn up with a 2 year old now you're already too late.

This has come as a bit of a nasty shock to a few people I know who have found their neighbours 4 year olds schools miles away as local admissions distances just published shrunk this year and they turned to the "pay or pray" alternatives only to find it is already too late to start pew hopping.

I certainly don't think that faking belief is a good idea - but you don't have to for CofE admissions criteria. (different with RC if baptism is required). You just have to turn up till your kid is in. You might need to carry on going and be polite about it for the duration of their school career to prevent nastiness to the DC (DD's best friend got a place at local CofE because she arrived in yr3 and there a vacant place.... the HT hounded the poor child why she wasn't going to church. She was ethnically chinese - WTF would she? )

As to churches subsidizing faith schools - it's up to 10% of capital costs. Please don't forget that the state massively subsidizes most religions via their charitable status ....even though a lot of their activities are only of any benefit to members of their 'club'.

I can't believe anyone would be able to sustain this over the long term.

Many churchgoers are kind, welcoming people who will want to share your lives.

They will ask about your kids, organise a dinner rota just after birth of a newborn, come visit you in hospital, ring you when they haven't seen you for a while.

I struggle to believe that anyone would be able to lie consistently to people who are being open and kind to them.

I don't think you'd be doing anything at all wrong if you did this. I'd actually think less of someone that has access to a good school but doesn't bother to jump through the hoops for the sake of their children's education when the alternative is dire.

There is a lot to be said about the parents at some schools, and I believe the parents and intake has more to do with a schools real ethos and standards than the teachers and the teaching has.

Tell your DH that you're prepared to accept his view, but only after he's visited all the schools available and has stood around each of the playgrounds at drop off and pick up time. Only then can he really understand what the differences are.

Fwiw, I believe in God, although I don't consider myself Christian, my children went to a CofE primary because that's what all the schools are around here, and they both consider themselves to be atheists at the moment. As do many of the other children there, but because all the schools are CofE, it's a non issue having a non believing child at a religious school.

Jokes are supposed to be funny. I think whether you are joking or not, that statement speaks volumes about how anti-Christian you are. You are going to be opposing the ethos of the school at every turn for six years.

baking, I think you're going to find yourself on dodgy ground if you set yourself up as the MN joke arbiter.

It is unethical, but many people do it.
The problem comes when the school is that over subscribed they look for extra commitment to the church, how long attended, other family members attendance, christened in the church etc.
I have known dc not gain a place who met all the criteria, so its not always so cut and dried.

What about when your child gets into the faith school? Are you then prepared to have them make their First Holy Communion, Confirmation or whatever religious ceremonies or sacraments form part of that faith, even though they mean nothing to you?

If you have a moral objection to private school and so won't do that you presumably don't have a moral objection to pretending to have a faith so just go along to church, keep an open mind and you might find the faith bit actually stops being a pretense.

How do you know that all the non-faith schools expect their children to become checkout workers if you haven't visited the schools?

I'm not sure I could send my child to a school where they were expected to worship a deity. You would be faced with a choice of lying to your children throughout their school years (of course we all believe darling) or telling them that it is OK to lie to get what they want (of course we don't really believe darling, but shhh don't tell your friends or your teachers).

I am appalled actually that for someone who supposedly cares about their children's education you can't take the time to actually go and check out the schools for yourself rather than listen to rumour.

She's not just listening to rumour though, she's also going on her own experience of seeing and hearing the parents that do use the school she doesn't like.

I think being around the school at drop off and pick up time is a pretty good way of making a basic judgement about intake myself.

Those who think it's unethical to fake a faith, do you not think it unethical to discriminate against children on the basis of their parents' religion? It doesn't seem a very Christian action to me.

I guess not though, as I suspect the majority have children in a faith school through "devoutness"

Im not sure WooWoo - if you were to be outside DS school at pick up time you would probably make some pretty negative judgements about the intake. But when you actually bother to go into the school you would find it is a great school with a lot of very supportive parents who really work with the school well.

If you want your child to have a religious education, fine. I don't think it's right to get the state to fund it though, do it in your own time or pay for it yourself.

I wonder what it is about faith schools that makes them appear "better" than the non-faith alternatives? What do they do differently to achieve the results that so many non-religious parents are prepared to lie to get access to? Is it something about the faith schools (selection? discrimination?) or a failing in the the non-faith schools?

YABU.

I wouldn't pretend to be a church goer to get my children into a church school. Faith schools are not automatically better schools anyway.
No way would I want my children indoctrinated into a religion just to prove I am a better parent than the ones who send their children to the local schools.

You sound like a snob TBH.