to go to church to get DS into a better school

[ilovejesus]

We live in the centre of a big city, near some badly rated schools. The faith schools are, of course, much better.

I am an atheist and so is DH. We both think the current system is appalling, but I am prepared to start going to church in order to get DS into a better school when the time comes (he's 2). DH is strongly against this, saying it's unethical. I think the whole bloody system is unethical, but until the system is changed, I don't want to ruin DD's future over it. He's also morally against sending her private (not that we could afford it), and I am too.

So as not to drip feed, my problem with the schools is not the teaching which I'm sure is fine, it's the low expectations set for these children. Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards. There's nothing wrong with that but I want more for DD. We both went to good unis and have professional jobs.

AIBU to go to church with my fingers crossed, and if not, how do I convince DH?

I am catholic and wanted my children to have a catholic upbringing like me, however almost as soon as my sons school form was signed, they changed parish priest and the church turned from a friendly, welcoming place to be to what I can only describe as fundamentalist (you are a sinner, your children are sinners, give us money fundamentalist). Even as a catholic I feel incredibly uncomfortable being there, but I feel trapped into it because my son is in the school and his brother will be there too. The school is lovely but very religious. I think you need to think very carefully and look into how religious the school is.

Tequilia how do you intend to keep new people coming into the church with that attitude?

There's an easy way for the churches to stop it: just declare that the reserving of school places for children based on how often their parents take them to church is unChristian and people will stop going to church in order to get a mostly state-funded school place practically overnight.

Wow, the school I'm looking at wants once a month for a year. That's pretty weak. Maybe I should go RC to give myself a real challenge.

DS currently thinks Iggle Piggle is real. I could try arguing that (temporarily) believing in god is no worse than believing in the tooth fairy or father christmas, though there are fewer wars fought over the other two.

cingolimama thank you for the advice!

Temporarily for the next 9 years or so?

Mines I think there's a difference in new people with an actual interest in seeking faith, and people just there to use the church to get a place on school.

The system is unethical so I think you are right to play it at its own game, OP. In some areas all the available schools are faith schools. and in any event there is really no such thing as a non-denominational school as all require collective worship. It stinks.

Of course it's hypocritical. However the whole system is mad. So I don't blame you for doing this. Lots of other people will be doing the same. Lots of people go to church who don't believe in God or at least are agnostics.

Agree with bom. I am a total swot and feel guilty about unreturned library books but see nothing wrong with this op. The system is nonsensical and discriminatory. Even the head of Church of England schools couldn't defend it properly on the radio the other day.

Just don't come back in a few years crying that the faith school you sent your child to makes him pray and talks about God as if he is real

Well, that happens in most non-denominational schools as in this country schools Christian collective worship is a requirement.

Get him into the faith school and complain to them about any teaching of God as fact. It's the only way things will change if parents start to complain about it.

Once a month for a year really is a token request from the school, so they can't be that bothered. Provided you are able to back up whatever stance the school takes and don't start moaning on about indoctrination.

Your child learning about the religion that this countries laws and culture are historically based on is no bad thing. If nothing else it will provide good background info for RE at GCSE level (which was compulsory for my DD1 and she has really struggled with it and took this morning, hope it went OK).

On the education board you will see views that schools with these kind of hoops tend to do better as any parent that is willing to jump through hoops is more likely to be interested and supportive. I think I have seen mentioned that if parental ability to juggle was used then the school would still do better than expected!

This from last year:

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10159167/Anger-over-move-to-allow-Church-of-England-to-run-state-schools.html

Youre a snob. And a hypocrite.
If the system is so bad its partly down to people like you propping it up.

"Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards"

You haven't been to visit the school- but you know this for a fact, do you?

"it's the low expectations set for these children. Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards."

Are you sure? Have you visited the schools and had a close look at the stats on the Dept of Ed website for these schools? Do they meet and exceed the expected targets for each category of attainer? If they exceed them, they are pushing and challenging all abilities of children.

If a schools admission criteria say 'attendance at church' then anyoone who attends church is eligible.

You would think that the church would be glad of the opportunity to welcome people and encourage them to take a closer look or involvement in their religion, and to welcome chidren into a Christian environment.

Someone (a Christian, I think) said 'you can have a Christian school, or a school for Christians - but not both'.

However: how do you feel about your child being in a school environment where you are possibly constantly qualifying or challenging what the school says? Cake sales, fetes, PTA events are all very much a part of life for primary school parents and you make new friends - parents of your DC friends, etc. How will you feel about all this being in a very church environment?

Does talking to other mums include Mums who have children at the other school? Or ones who have moved / gone private / gone faith etc etc?

There are a lot of myths about schools that people have never set foot in

But, there are areas where schools are genuinely por, as in offering a poor education. If you are in one, maybe move.

that sounds very low OP in terms of required attendance, round here it is 3 years or longer.

For everyone saying that the OP is hypocritical going to church and not believing, I am sure there are a lot of people in church who aren't sure or go along for their own reasons. I go to church every week....I would honestly say I am still not sure, I was brought up going to church, I like going each week but I am not the most spiritual person there. I am not going to get my child into a faith school, but if I decided to would that make me a hypocrite because I am unsure about my faith?

And in terms of answering difficult questions, I take my DC to church my DH doesn't come because he is an atheist, my children know that some people believe and some people don't I don't think that makes it awkward, when they ask questions about death and heaven I just tell them that I believe one thing but not everyone believes the same.

If it's CofE you're considering going to, bear in mind that because of its unique status as the State Church, you can validly view it as your church regardless of what you believe.

The CofE say this in the context of weddings:
As long as it's legal, you’re welcome to marry in the Church of England whatever your beliefs, whether or not you are christened and regardless of whether you go to church or not. It’s your church, and we welcome you!

For as long as we're saddled with a non-secular state, this is the flip side. It's not a private club.

The friends I know who have become regular church goers around the time they're thinking about schools, do have some inkling of faith I suppose.

DD goes to a CoE school which doesn't require church attendance. They spend a lot of time talking about the bible, doing religion themed artwork, writing stories about the bible, praying. She is quite deeply ensconced in it and believes it. She wants to blend in and often asks if we are Christians like her friends' families.

We have an inkling of faith I suppose so I don't find it too bad to say "yes we are Christians but we don't regularly go to church". I pray at school parent assemblies and sing hymns at the school church services. I have even displayed two foot high pictures of Jesus on my walls at home. But I have to say, it feels a bit alien if you aren't a church goer.

I think for infants age, it would be quite confusing to tell them no we don't believe in it at home, but go along with it anyway at school. I also think it would be difficult to suddenly reveal to your dc later down the line it was all a lie on your part. I think you can wing it if you have some faith but as an atheist - I don't know.

Is it unethical? If you are truly atheist I would think it's the lying to your dc long-term that might be an issue. Because it's really not a small thing, as I have discovered. It's their everyday school life. If you don't lie you put them in a difficult position.

Having said that, I would think a number of people do it and somehow manage.

Like you ilovejesus I was brought up RC and had a Catholic education and I'm now a born again atheist. I couldn't bring myself to get my DC baptised or go to church, it would have felt ridiculously hypocritical.

But in the bit of West London we ended up in my DC scraped into an OK secondary while my neighbours were spoilt for choice over the several excellent Secondaries available to theirs.

Consequently, with hindsight, I may have made different choices...

It is a truly unfair system that increasing pressure on school places has brought into sharp relief, and I think that parents who are not on the sharp end of it just don't get it.

YABVU purely for saying if your children decided to become Christians you'd disown them and yet you are intending to take them to church and send them to a church school.
School reputations change at a glacial pace. My DH has been a governor and is now chair at our community primary since before we had children. It was in special measures when he started, it's now the only 'good' school in the area, hoping for outstanding at their upcoming inspection. It has very high ESL, FSM, SEN ratios. The staff and governors work their socks off to improve the lot of pupils from deprived backgrounds, and in fact results are now as good as the naice white MC CofE school down the road (which has slipped from good to inadequate in the meantime) Any children there who also have parental support are off and flying academically, and also benefit from the social and cultural diversity. The school wants every child to achieve their full potential.
As committed Christians and regular attenders of the parish church we could easily have got our own children into the CofE school locally and said sod the other local children. But we didn't.

Go and actually look at the other schools and ask how you could be using your privileged background, superior intelligence and university education to help them improve. Jesus wasn't very keen on hypocrisy.

YABU. It is unethical - faith schools are subsidised by the religious organisation, so Catholic schools are subsidised by the Roman Catholic Church. It is unethical to take their money and pull the wool over their eyes for selfish purposes.

I agree with your DH. You don't sound like a very moral person.

faith schools are subsidised by the religious organisation

They are also heavily subsidised by the state.

Possibly better for your DC if you do a bit of pretend worship. Arguably better for society as a whole if you don't "prop up" the system.

It would be hypocritical for most of us to blame you if you think the first thing outweighs the second and decide to go the faking-for-faith-school route. We all put the needs of our own DC above others, in some way or other, all the time.

Jesus wasn't very keen on hypocrisy
Blimey, he'd be pretty shocked by organised religion, then.

He's also morally against sending her private (not that we could afford it), and I am too.

Your 'morals' sound a little confused.

Perhaps church would help.

If not, don't insult others' faith by using it as an apparent insurance against your child working in a supermarket.

Speedwellblue - it's complicated because we have moved parish in between organising the baptism, and it actually taking place, and now need the permission of the new psrish to have a baptism in the old parish. Priest won't give permission, until we have both attended Mass for a minimum of 3 months, and signed in like naughty schoolchildren. I already attend Mass every week with the children but he needs to see this signing in. Then we must attend a course that is all day on a Saturday for 3 consecutive Saturdays, which the children may not attend (we know nobody locally to ask to look after them as we've only just moved). Then we need to renew our own baptismal promises in front of the congregation at Sunday Mass - not an issue for me but it is for my non-practising dh, who is happy that the children be raised Catholic but not to attend Mass himself or say things he doesn't believe. We have already attended the prep course in our old Parish, and doing all this means we will need to cancel and rearrange the baptism that was already planned before we moved.

Sorry to derail thread, OP, but speedwell asked!