to go to church to get DS into a better school

[ilovejesus]

We live in the centre of a big city, near some badly rated schools. The faith schools are, of course, much better.

I am an atheist and so is DH. We both think the current system is appalling, but I am prepared to start going to church in order to get DS into a better school when the time comes (he's 2). DH is strongly against this, saying it's unethical. I think the whole bloody system is unethical, but until the system is changed, I don't want to ruin DD's future over it. He's also morally against sending her private (not that we could afford it), and I am too.

So as not to drip feed, my problem with the schools is not the teaching which I'm sure is fine, it's the low expectations set for these children. Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards. There's nothing wrong with that but I want more for DD. We both went to good unis and have professional jobs.

AIBU to go to church with my fingers crossed, and if not, how do I convince DH?

I probably am being a snob. But I want DS to have friends whose parents are trying to bring them up in a similar way to how we're doing him.

My DD is at an outstanding secondary. But we have yet to find that. There are no guarantees. I also think you assume that 'naice' middle-class parents will have 'naice' children. Have found that not to be the case either. There seems to be a mix of good kids and mean kids in all schools, it does not necessarily depend on the status of the parents.

I think you may have missed the boat is your DS due to start in Sept 16? This would mean application in by Dec 15 so you only would crank up 1.5 years of church attendance by that point which may not be enough....

I'm with Sirzy as I'm a bit amazed as you're righting off schools you haven't even been to. Not to mention parents of kids that go to those schools. Your last post to ComposHat implies that, but not everyone has the confidence to push / fight to get their kid into a school that they don't fit the criteria for. That doesn't mean they're not good parents or that they don't want their kids to do well.

The religious schools tend to attract middle class parents. That creates a groundswell of 'this is a better school'. I'd bet a lot are good schools, but you can't right off all the others. My son goes to an inner city school that a lot of people told us we were mad to send him to. But we loved it when we looked round and he's yr 5 now and has always been happy there, is doing well academically and has lovely mates from all manner of backgrounds. I'm not having a go, just saying you might be pleasantly surprised. Keep an open mind and go and have a look at the other schools.

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but it's just what people do.

I'm not very religious myself but I think there's a lot of good that can come from children attending church.

Dont hate the player, hate the game?

This has nothing to do with the game. You want to lie and cheat to get your children a better education. But the biggest influence on your childrens future is YOU. So if you want them to be lying, hypocritical cheats with no ethics and a wilingness to do anything to get what they want, go rightahead.

It probably wont work anyway.

The school in the deprived area I spoke of is amazing. Yes there are kids there whose parents for various reasons (including having very complex lives) don't have time or energy to go trawling around schools, however a few have chosen that school, and the rest have highly educated and ambitious parents - who just happen not to be British (often University lecturers). I came close to moving one of my DC there.
If you move, please do not take your (London I guess) prejudices with you - or maybe I should suggest you do so you end up in a C of E school which most church goers don't want.

I'd say it's a corrupt system that confers advantage upon religious parents at the expense of atheists. So yes, uh, "don't hate the player, hate the game".

I am an atheist.

I think YABU.

I wouldnt hate you for doing what you propose, as I know your motives are good. (You just want the best for your child.)

But I do think it's wrong to lie. It sets a very bad example to your child .... that lying/bending the truth is the correct way to live your life and get what you want/need.

So, (to me), 'faking' religion, (or even just faking an interest in it), shows a lack of personal integrity and is perhaps quite immoral. Is that the sort of education you want for your child? (Education starts at home don't forget.)

Of course, if I were facing the threat of death, (or something else quite horrible), I, (& almost everyone?), would happily renounce our current beliefs, (and/or lack of faith), and swear on the ".......", (name any kind of religious book here), that we were true believers of " ...", if doing so would save our skins. (And sod the morality of lying in such circumstances!)

But is this issue, (ie schooling), SUCH a big deal you are willing to sell out your existing honesty & integrity? (I thnk it's quite hard to get those qualities back once you have let them go?)

Therefore, I'm with your DP. (Play the game with a straight bat! At least for now?)

I would agree with you that a private school might be a better choice if you can afford it, (a big IF), and if the local, (non faith), school options are as bad as you imagine.

I also agree with the poster who said it's a rotten system. Why should people of faith, (some of whom are not very sincere about their beliefs), get a better education than some, (more truthful/moral), atheists?

And why oh why can't there be loads of outstanding schools for kids of atheists? (Is it just a question of insufficient funding?)

The system sucks for you. (And I think faith schools shouldn't exist.) But, personally, I don't think I could bring myself to "fake religion" just to get my kid into a better school.

I'd look at all the alternatives, and also try to complain re the system, so maybe future atheists will not have to think about lying to get a fairer choice of education.

Best of luck.

The system is unethical so I don't think there's anything wrong with lying to get into a state school. It's just one form of civil disobedience. I'm not against people lying about where they live either. I think it's shocking that our children's access to good schooling should depend on things like their parents religion and address.

But just going against what your husband wants is less reasonable. You need to come to a compromise you can both live with happily.

If the school admission criteria asks for church attendance, and the OP has been attending church then she is not lying and cheating.

However, if the school admission criteria asks for a baptism certificate for the child that would be a different matter. iirc when an infant is baptised the parents have to make promises to bring up the child knowing God (or something like this?). So if the OP were to do this, then that could be viewed as lying.

There is no 'Spanish Inquisition' style 'faith test' for church schools, only strictly measurable criteria like attendance, baptism, helping out etc. Many churches have registers to sign at the end of the service to prove attendance.

fwiw, the church school in our town is probably the least good....

Ilovejesus - if your child gets into the church school, how are you going to cope with the religious assemblies and services, and the RE at school? Your child will be learning prayers and hymns, and learning about Christianity, and there will be much more of an emphasis on Christianity than there would be at a non-faith school.

I can't see how you will be able to withdraw your child from assemblies and RE etc - because if you have professed a Christian faith to get into the school, you won't be able to say that the prayers/assemblies etc go against your beliefs.

You will have 7 years of keeping up this pretence - can you really face that? And can your child keep it up for 7 years?

Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards

.....who sets the aspirations for children themselves? schools? parents?
How confusing is it going to be for your children that a key part of their education their parents are saying is incorrect.

my point relates to the faith rather than you presumed early life career choice.

Just to clarify I am not bothered as to whether children are ESL or not, we are inner city and most people we know are ESL.

Happy to join in with activities, I'm a bit of a joiner (DH is vehemently not), help youth group, whatever. Not going to launder the altar cloths though unless they want them stained pink.

I've checked the criteria for our nearest good school and it doesn't mention baptism, only that parent(s) attend church.

Re giving my child a bad moral lesson, I guess I'd tell him that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do, and that things aren't always fair.

I wouldn't go against what DH wants. I would use everything in my power to convince him, but ultimately if he says no I won't do it. Like some posters have said though, I'd better start soon if I'm going to..

SDTG I wouldn't keep him out of assemblies or RE; surely even in a CofE school RE is to teach about all faiths, and assembly is boring but short. Nativity plays are excellent.

aquashiv I think they get their expectations for life from what they see around them, what they see their parents achieving. Not saying I'm always completely dressed when I leave the house, but a good 50% of them are wearing their pyjamas and smoking (is that a fire risk??)

I'm an atheist and think this is pretty bad to be honest. Very disrespectful to those going to church out of faith, not necessity.

Back up entirely what Teen says. OP isn't lying and cheating if she attends church, which is the only criteria for the vast majority of CofE schools.

There's a fair degree of ignorance and hyperbole on this thread. If OP is okay with attending church in order to get her child into her preferred school, then I really don't see how her integrity is affected.

OP please clarify what the precise admission criteria is. You can look it up on the school website - it should be crystal clear, even to specifyin how many weeks attendance required. Also if baptism required (extremely unlikely for CofE - this is more of a requirement for Roman Catholic schools). Anything that isn't clear, call the school and ask.

Would you really want your child being taught a faith that you think is a pile of nonsense?

Usually i'd understand why you're doing this, and think that anything that brings someone to church is a good thing, but as a practising Catholic who is having to jump through so many ridiculous hoops to get my child baptised, and prove it is not about church attendance, I'm quite upset about this issue at the moment. It's not just taking places at school away from those who do want a faith-based education for their children for genuine reasons, but also getting in the way of those with faith actually practising that faith.

Tequila, I go to church out of faith, and I wouldn't feel disrespected.

Good for you cingolimama My very religious family would be extremely upset.

I must admit I've witnessed a few acquaintances turning 'overnight Christian' even Catholic....going for 6 months or less to get there dc into a good school.

I actually do think its unethical....but where you are coming from concerns me far less than children in schools having to sit out of an assembly or simple morning prayer because of parents views.

And your 'laundering alter cloths' made me chuckle

Smarty What are you having to do to get your child baptised? (Just interested.)

Teq, I suppose it's because I didn't grow up in the faith, and the first time I went to church I really really really didn't know what I was doing there. I wouldn't say I was a staunch atheist, but I was definitely agnostic. So I know what it is to enter a church without any faith and to feel welcome.

Just don't come back in a few years crying that the faith school you sent your child to makes him pray and talks about God as if he is real.

OP go to see the schools - only then you will have an idea of the expectations the school will have for your child and how they can help them to meet yours. You might even meet some other parents then too and see or themselves if they have already decided their kids will amount to nothing.

Ofsted is largely bollocks. Our DCs school has gone from Outstanding to Satisfactory back to Outstanding again in 3 years. Nonsense. The only thing to look at - and this relates most closely to your issue re expectations for children to do well is "added value". That can be an indicator of a school that helps every child to meet their potential.