to go to church to get DS into a better school

[ilovejesus]

We live in the centre of a big city, near some badly rated schools. The faith schools are, of course, much better.

I am an atheist and so is DH. We both think the current system is appalling, but I am prepared to start going to church in order to get DS into a better school when the time comes (he's 2). DH is strongly against this, saying it's unethical. I think the whole bloody system is unethical, but until the system is changed, I don't want to ruin DD's future over it. He's also morally against sending her private (not that we could afford it), and I am too.

So as not to drip feed, my problem with the schools is not the teaching which I'm sure is fine, it's the low expectations set for these children. Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards. There's nothing wrong with that but I want more for DD. We both went to good unis and have professional jobs.

AIBU to go to church with my fingers crossed, and if not, how do I convince DH?

Maybe Sirzy, but either way the OP should be allowed to choose whichever state school she thinks will suit her family best. If she wants to choose the school that doesn't have around 50% of parents wearing pyjamas and smoking at drop off, then that's a valid choice that she shouldn't be criticised for.

You don't have to fake a faith.The form doesn't ask you what you believe!!You don't have to be a believer to go to church.I know people who go to church because they love the music, and others who like the fellowship.Everyone is welcome.

'As to churches subsidizing faith schools - it's up to 10% of capital costs' but sometimes the church originally donated the premises too

I've never seen a school where 50% of parents wear Pyjamas

And I live in a very inner city area.

Sorry I will critisize people who are willing to judge a school based on such a tiny snapshot of things happening outside of a school without having even set foot in the place.

Op, have you come across the word "hypocrisy"?

I was only going on a previous post from the OP.

I didn't read it as if she was judging the school. More that she was judging the parents who use that school as people who she doesn't want to influence her child's education.

Well she is able to make judgements on the expectations of the pupils without setting foot in it - if that's not judging the school then I don't know what is.

And how can you make such judgement simply by walking past the school?

If she wants to choose the school that doesn't have around 50% of parents wearing pyjamas and smoking at drop off
sorry but that is just pure bollocks

Of course that's not judging the school!

It says nothing about the teachers or the teaching, or the behaviour expectations the school sets or anything else.

Feeling put off a school because a significant number of parents aren't dressed properly and are smoking around their children is a judgement on parents.

Rightly or wrongly, people are free to make negative judgments about large groups of parents smoking outside a school, and it's reasonable to judge that you don't particularly want to be faced with that on your own school run.

I sympathise with your position. The system is corrupt. You don't need to say that you're Christians, only to go to church sometimes. When in church you don't need to join in the prayers, etc. Just be there as a quiet observer. And when your child is at the school you don't need to lie to them. Plenty of parents at C of E schools are not Christians. Just tell your child what you believe. They can't throw your child out for this - you won't have lied to get them in, just attended church.

Please can someone explain why going to church= faking a faith?

Well isn't that what a church is?

A place where you go to worship god.

I had this option but decided that it was hypocritical and decided against it.

Honestly the thought of forcing my children to attend Church just so they can be educated is totally off putting.

Imo You are better off spending the time teaching your child what they are missing at school.

Sassy

if you are not religious and you pretend to be you are faking it.

You are also teaching a child that cheating the system is acceptable. Which it isn't even if the system is wrong.

Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards.

I just don't believe that.
Haven you been to have a look at them?
Don't just look at league tables and Ofsted reports, they mean very little.

Personally, I think faith schools are unethical. There's no way I would go to church to get into one.

Having picked a church school at random, they have an application form which states that the faith criteria requires the parents to be 'faithful and committed worshippers' - that seems to me to be asking you to confirm that you have faith as you have to tick the box against the statement that describes your faith. So yes, they do ask what you believe.

I don't think that faith schools are using church attendance as a shorthand to prove the parents' interest in choral music, stained glass or flower arranging.

Honestly, those talking about fairness or ethics should consider their own hypocrisy. State-funded faith schools in reality are able to select the children of committed parents (committed to regular worship at the very least) which generally means more engaged children and fewer behavioural issues. It's absolutely disgusting.

I'm speaking as someone with a small child, whose two nearest schools are oversubscribed faith schools. The nearest non-faith schools are oversubscribed and also have tiny catchments. We don't have a hope of getting into any of them. The reality for my son is that (a) he gets extremely lucky and gets into his local school (unlikely), (b) we move into catchment for a non-faith school (dependent on winning the lottery), (c) we pay or pray, (d) he is allocated a school miles away from our community that entails a 30 minute drive each way.

If someone can explain to me the fairness and ethics of this system, when taxpayers' money is going to all the schools, I'd be grateful.

There aren't enough school places to be entirely fair unfortunately. Fair in my mind means every child getting a place at their parents first choice school as long as it's within 7/8 miles of their home, and that just isn't going to happen.

Whatever system we have, it's going to be unfair on someone.

Ban all selection on the basis of faith
Ban academic selection
Ban fee-paying schools

That would be a start.

"Choice" is total red herring designed as a divisive tactic to distract us, parents, from the main issue that the system stinks.

The sooner people stop feigning religion the better. If you do you are part of the problem.

Good post Jassy

what is wrong with academic selection? I went to a grammar school and so do my children.I think they are great!

Seven or eight miles is a bit ridiculous in big cities where travelling that distance can take ages. It also means a child can never walk or cycle to school, and takes them completely out if their communities.

You won't get any argument from me that we need lots of schools where there is a shortage of places. But admissions need to be fairer and certainly not discriminatory based on parental religion.

Most countries manage just fine without faith schools, and have pure catchment based admissions.