to go to church to get DS into a better school

[ilovejesus]

We live in the centre of a big city, near some badly rated schools. The faith schools are, of course, much better.

I am an atheist and so is DH. We both think the current system is appalling, but I am prepared to start going to church in order to get DS into a better school when the time comes (he's 2). DH is strongly against this, saying it's unethical. I think the whole bloody system is unethical, but until the system is changed, I don't want to ruin DD's future over it. He's also morally against sending her private (not that we could afford it), and I am too.

So as not to drip feed, my problem with the schools is not the teaching which I'm sure is fine, it's the low expectations set for these children. Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards. There's nothing wrong with that but I want more for DD. We both went to good unis and have professional jobs.

AIBU to go to church with my fingers crossed, and if not, how do I convince DH?

SoonToBeSix but the system is weighted in your favour.

mumofthemonsters because I see them swearing at their children at the school gates.

HouseofEliot are you saying that the other 10 years of going to church was a waste of time then? What would Jesus think?

nancy thanks! I will make sure I sit near the front and wear something distinctive.

bouncinbean There is no way I could pass as Catholic. If it was standard or RC I'd just leave her in the closest one.
I do know some lovely christians, but also a couple of absolutely awful ones who are using religion instead of morals.

lynnie did you move specifically for this primary school? And if you were moving now, with a 2 year old and hopefully some future siblings, would you prioritise being near a secondary school or just intend to move again?

grockle Don't hate the player, hate the game.

KleineDrache there are lots of nearby non-faiths, all lowest possible Ofsted. The CofE one is about 5 min walk and second highest possible ofsted. (I realise this isn't much difference.) There's a RC one closer but I'm not trying for that.

Chipped, ha ha!

It is unethical and hypocritical.
And think fast-forward. You get your DC into a preferred school, then they'll have collective worship, celebrations, religious education, probably certain values that you will not agree with. Are you sure to sign up for all of that?

rocketjam
You can tell children that some people believe that Jesus is the son of God. Some people believe that Muhammad is Allah's prophet, some people (ie. Hindus) believe in lots of gods and some people don't believe in God. I think that a book that covers all the world faiths is good as it shows that different people have different beliefs.

Unless the school is utra selective, I imagine that there will be other children from non christian families.

It's not unethical. The system is totally immoral imo, religion has no place in education - do whatever you want within the shitty system we have.

No we go to church because we want to and we are committed to our religion. I have gone longer but my Dd is 11 and has gone since birth.

Other people who just went for the last 12 months only for school criteria and not because they believe got in as they live slightly nearer than us. Also our priest seems to have signed anyones form who asked him to.

TheRealMary,ReallyTired I probably am being a snob. But I want DS to have friends whose parents are trying to bring them up in a similar way to how we're doing him. The schools themselves are probably fine. But everything is so oversubscribed that anyone who makes an effort goes to the faith schools, and those who don't (or don't know the system) are sent to this one. Being in a city centre, the population is also quite transient in the worse schools.

Not worried about artificially high results. I don't intend to pay for tutoring. It's the expectations.

rocketjam It's difficult. I wouldn't want to lie to DS. Either I would skirt around it, or if he was old enough to keep quiet at school I'd tell him? God knows. What do other people do?? Even religious leaders on r4 nowadays admit there are different levels of belief..

TeenAndTween Thanks I will check the criteria. We're about to move anyway so I don't know if its different for every school or standard for the LEA?

DogCalledRudis Well I did all that at my school and I'm still an atheist.

TheScience thank you. Based on your username, I'm now going to tell myself that Science itself agrees with me.

HouseofEliot I hope I can find a priest like that. Makes the system a lot fairer!

My next question is how do I talk DH into this? He is SO against it. I don't think he understands the difficulty or expense of getting into a good non-faith school (of which there are basically none, and certainly none near us).

why not go? will do no harm. be careful which schools you choose though as some are more overtly christian than others.

Don't children who go to faith schools have to have been baptised? If so, are you willing to have your DS baptised, attend church every Sunday, volunteer at church (flowers, playgroup, readings, church cleaning etc) and continue to do so in order to get a place at the school?

Morally, I don't think it's a huge issue. At the end of the day, you may come away from the experience as a believer! I know of someone who did what you're proposing to do, in order to get her children into good schools, who went from being an atheist to training to be a vicar herself!

So you are basing your judgements on what you see when you walk past the school at hometime?

I think before making any such decisions you need to visit the schools, talk to the staff and take it from there

It is unethical!

Okay - now go and look at the schools! Do not judge on hear say or rumour or what the papers say. I visited my first schools when my eldest was 2.

Around here we have one C of E which is at least 90% Muslim, a C of E secondary which no-one wants their children to go to (sadly it has such a reputation that I'm not sure it can ever be turned around), and one Community school in a deprived area which people say negative things about but has very high aspirations for their children; as well as a number of other schools.

Go and look around and talk to the teachers. You would hate to compromise your principles for 3 years, just to get your DS in, then after a couple of years move him because it isn't the school you thought it was.

Look it is fine. The Catholic church is always open to hewcomers and hey you might find you learn some nice stuff. And you can confess your intentions and be promptly forgiven.

I believe that religions should have no business in state education. That said, what you are doing is unethical and in all likelihood pointless. What does it tell your children? If you don't get what you want, lie, abandon your principles until you get what you want?

You are perhaps putting too much weight on the Ofsted report, what you are seeing in the disparity between the reports is probably not the result of the quality of the teaching, but the way the intakes of the school have been shaped by a selection policy by any other name. The sharp elbowed middle class parents who are prepared to jump through all the hoops that the church schools put up for the parents of would-be pupils up for them.

There is no magic fairy dust these schools have, there is no guarantee the quality of education is better, but as someone said on another thread, that if the criteria had been 'learn to juggle' then the same middle class parents with the time, wherewithal and resources to devote time and resources to getting them to learn to juggle would get in.

And when your s on gets the hang of it, he will know all about acceptance and forgiveness so you'll be sweet

I agree with teenandtween, there is nothing to say you have to be, or even pretend to be, a Christian to go to church. I might be wrong but I think that church attendance/involvement is the criteria, not a personal faith.

I personally wouldn't. Our DC got into out local, CofE "outstanding" school anyway.

A friend helps out in the crèche at the Sunday church services. A couple of years ago, the weekend before school places were announced, the crèche was full. The week after there were only her kids there. I was a bit about that but she said it happens every year. Apparently he church work on the fact that all the mums are super keen and do lots of volunteering so they get lots of help. The next year it is another group of mums. So they always get people in the door.

Our criteria is "actively involved in the life of the church" for school entry. OP are you prepared to go help out with the food bank, the crèche, the flowers, the old people home visiting and not just go to church once in a while? If your heart isn't in it you might not get in anyway.

YANBU. You would not be unethical nor hypocrital if you attended. Teen has mentioned this and I reiterate it. CofE criteria requires attendance only. The idea that you have to pass some kind of "faith detector" test is ludicrous. It's also presumptuous.

Let me lay my cards on the table. I'm a committed Christian and regular church goer. However, over the years there have been times I have attended when I doubted. Most people have days and moments of doubt - that comes as part of faith.

Here's a shocker: all are welcome. Yes, atheists too. But OP, churches vary, congregations are different. Please find a church that you can live with - probably not an evangelical one.

I wish you luck.

does the school not have open places (for those of any/no religion?) - we put a CofE school down for DD but on an open place (she is baptised but we never go to church) - this school's places are split roughly 50/50 between church and open places, and often there end up being more open than church places once everything's shaken down.

You could start going and see how you like it - I know some people who started going for school reasons but in fact have ended up getting very involved with their church, so that's not bad thing - if it wasn't for school they may have not bothered at all.

I feel your pain, but for what it's worth DD got into the school we always thought she would (not a faith school) but didn't hold out much hope for as its catchment has shrunk so much in recent years. @ years of pain and angst and not knowing what to do (moving etc) and it worked out fine in the end.

If you were merely a 'fencesitter' with no strong views on either side, I'd be a little less harsh but if you are both staunch disbelievers then I think it's hypocritical and potentially suggests to your children that it's OK to lie in certain circumstances to get what you want.

I'm not sure that's a good lesson to teach them.

Having said that, I do understand why you feel the way you do about wanting the best education for your child. Unfortunately a lot of parents have no choice and there is only one non-religious school where they live anyway and their child goes there regardless of results.

Preciousbane If my DC become christians, I suppose I'll have no choice but to disown them :(

FreckledLeopard I'm not massively keen on baptism, but would do it. I think DH will be a hard sell on it. Can't wait to become a vicar!

Sirzy On that, and talking to other mums. And ofsted reports. And weirdly, our HV who looked horrified when I said what our nearest school was.

mummytime Thanks I'll go and look at the schools. But if we're moving, it's going to be a lot of different schools we're looking at, depending where we go. And this would give us a lot more choice and a better chance.

treadheavily ha ha! I've killed loads of people so being catholic would be amazing. I suppose the guilt i'd get absolved of from that would be replaced with guilt about sex though.

ComposHat But I want him to go to school with other children whose parents jump through ridiculous hoops for the benefit of their children's futures! Or, for there to be no hoops at all. But definitely not for him to go to the school with children whose parents could have done that, and didnt.

I don't know ANYONE who isn't either going to church, or can afford to pay for private school.

Leaving out all the arguments about ethics, unfortunately this is what people do to get their children into the best schools. Even if some families at those schools aren't particularly committed to God they are at least committed enough to their children to care enough about their education to attend church and meet the criteria. Personally I don't think that's particularly wrong but I do think it's very wrong that there are too many schools out there that parents wouldn't be prepared to send their children to. That's the problem, not Christian insincerity.

OP - can I put you down to help at Friday youth club, Christian Aid collections and laundering the altar cloths for the next few years please? . And don't rush off too quickly as soon as your child gets the place, some of the secondaries are now asking for five years fortnightly attendance in this part of London

I'm just wondering how high on the list of criteria attending the church actually is?

My dc attend a church school, our local school, but living close by and having a sibling at school are more important criteria.

The only schools, in this area at least, who have 'faith' high on the list are RC and the churches are wise to people who are using the church for a school place - regular attendance is required before christenings will be considered and at least one parent must be catholic and christened as such to enable the child to be christened.

Then assuming you get the school place your child will be required to take part in the faith aspect of the school day - assemblies, church visits, prayer etc. You can hardly ask for your child to be excused from this if faith is your stated reason for attendance. There are often services where parents are invited to attend. Are you prepared to do that?

I think what I'm saying is it isn't only 'doing religion' before your child is accepted. If your child is accepted at a faith school then religion will be a fairly 'normal' part of his life for years to come. And yours, too. Are you prepared for that?

On that, and talking to other mums. And ofsted reports

Parents of children at the school?

And I wouldn't read too much into Ofsted, at best they provide a snapshot of how that school is on the two days they visit.

I think it's unethical, but then again I think that tax-funded religious schools are unethical. And I am religious.