the school are using 5yos to accompany an epileptic classmate going to the toilet [long]

[owlbegoing]

Yesterday I had a call from the school saying my DD had shut her finger in the toilet door, she was fine they were just applying a wet hand towel to it. When I picked her up at home time her fingers seemed fine if a little bruised so I asked her how it happened as we walked home. She told me that Claire namechanged had needed to go to the toilet and my DD was asked to go with her as Claire isn't allowed to go by herself. I asked my DD if she knew why Claire wasn't allowed to go by herself and she didn't know. Later I remembered that Claire has epilepsy, which I knew from helping on school trips.
So I talked to the teacher this morning...yes they are using other pupils to accompany Claire on her trips to the toilet during lesson time as they can't spare an adult to go with her!
But it's ok as Claire goes into the cubicle by herself!!
Apparently during during lunch etc they do have an adult to go with her.
When I said that she's just as likely to have a fit while washing her hands as sitting on the toilet that didn't seem to have occurred to her!
The children aren't aware of Claire's condition so how traumatic would it be for a 5 year old to witness when it's just the two of them let alone if it happened during a lesson with adults around!
The teacher tried to justify it by saying that Claire hasn't had a fit in school yet
This teacher only started in January and this system was already in place so she didn't question it!

Would I be over reacting to try to speak to the head of EYFS about this?

If you've managed to read this far, thanks.

winkle It is not the parent's responsibility to provide supervision at break times, neither is it a parent's responsibility to provide SEN provision. Many parents are at work themselves. All children have a right to an education and all schools have a Duty of Care.

As for teacher break times etc, it is up to teachers and their unions to negotiate their working conditions. Whilst parents may support them, they cannot do this negotiation for them, neither are they responsible for providing supervision when a school have a Duty of Care during school hours

A parent does have a right for their child to be kept safe at school.

Beershuffle - as the parent of a child with epilepsy, how would you react if your child had a serious fit, whilst accompanied only by another child (who didn't even know your child had epilepsy, nor what to do if she did have a fit), and your child was more seriously injured than she would have been if she had been accompanied by someone who knew what to do?

And whilst I do absolutely understand why you would not want your child to be discussed in an open forum like this, can you see that this particular matter is one that needs to be discussed, because of the real risks to both children in this scenario, and because the OP, rightly imo, wanted to know if she was being unreasonable to be unhappy about her child, or any child being used like this?

No way is this on at all! I can't believe posters are saying it's ok.

I am a grown woman, had my first seizure aged 20 but had myoclonic jerks from about aged 13 and ignored them as I was a teenager and just thought, "I'd be ok" I had my first tonic clonic aged 20 at a bus stop and it totally freaked out the people who witnessed it and called an ambulance (I got told about the people who called for me) and these were GROWN adults! It's not nice and I can imagine a 5 year old would find the situation really overwhelming. One of my biggest fears is fitting around my 4 year old son. My dad has also witnessed my fits and found the whole situation scary. I go down quite hard, usually bump something, foam at the mouth and afterwards I'm still not ok, by the time I wake up I am restless, achy and confused. How on earth can you expect a 5 year old to deal with that? I am actually speechless!

BalloonSlayer

The school are expected, by the government, and should be prepared, to spend the initial £6k to cater for a child's additional needs. This would equates to roughly 16 hours of TA exclusive 1 to 1 support. (Just supervising toileting would not require that exclusive 1 to 1 level of support, a member of staff could be called from elsewhere during lesson time.) After the school have demonstrated they have made this 6k spend they, that is the school themselves, can apply for top up funding and a Educational Health Care Plan is drawn up (since the SEN Reform this is intended to replace Statements).

As far as I know a parent can still request the LA assess their child. IPSEA have advice here:

www.ipsea.org.uk/Apps/Content/html/?fid=91

If I had a child with epilepsy, and the school's response to her not being able to go to the loo alone was to send her with another 5 year old, I would keep her off school until something more satisfactory could be arranged.

But the children are being kept safe, Capsium, albeit in the "tiny" school yard.
As the previous Head only escorted then across the road and back, then presumably left them to their own devics, I should think they are safer in the yard.
Your SEN remark is totally irrelevant to RoseForme's situation.

I am sure the mother and father of that child would love to be in the position of being able to adequately home school their child martora while also providing peers. However that's probably not an option for most families. and they shouldn't have to. All you would be doing is making it easier for the school to say "problem solved".

Not to mention you would paying 60 quid a day for the privilege.

Id be furious and disgusted. But I wouldht allow it in the frst plsce.

winkle My SEN remark might be irrelevant to RoseForme'ssituation but it is partially relevant to your comment,

"If you were so concerned why did you not volunteer to do this "tiny job"?"

All often parents come across this attitude, "Why don't you volunteer then?" when faced with clearly inadequate SEN provision, safeguarding etc. IMO it is a dangerous mindset. It effectively shifts the responsibility onto parents for what should be provided by the school, even at the most basic Duty of Care levels.

Just because teaching Unions have had a bad time negotiating pay and conditions doesn't mean it is a parent's responsibility to provide, what should be provided by the school, by law.

Parents have a right for their child to be kept safe at school. Children have a right to be kept safe. Children also have a right to an education. It is a school's duty to provide this. Otherwise they cannot call themselves an effective school.

Oh and to who said absences are just a few seconds and not that bad, uh no. I suffer from them, myclonic jerks, atonics and tonic clonics. The absences when I snap out of it I feel like I'm on another planet for a good few mins, feel very light headed and in a daze, I am defintely not acting "normal" to anyone else around me so it's irrelevant the type of epilepsy she has, it's not on to expect 5 year olds to supervise!

It may be that the school cannot provide an adult to accompany Claire to the toilet unless Claire has a statement of special needs. Because it would probably have to be two adults, wouldn't it, for safeguarding purposes? If the family are unwilling to apply for a statement then there is not a lot the school can do.

In fact it is fully open to the school to make the request for statutory assessment leading to a statement, and they have a duty to do so if it necessary.

Irrespective of whether the child has a statement, the school a duty of care to keep children safe, and a duty not to discriminate on the grounds of disability. It is certainly discrimination to put a child with epilepsy in the position where she either cannot go to the loo, or if she does so she is in danger.

It really is not uncommon for schools to have children with physical and other difficulties on the roll, and it simply is not open to them to say they do not have staff to provide this sort of care and that they will therefore delegate 5 year olds to provide it. They are laying themselves open to all sorts of trouble, and in fact I suspect the parents of this child could take legal action in the child's name to enforce the school's duties - which would use up even more of the school's budget.

I would refuse for my child to accompany Claire to the toilet. It is not safe for either child. Just unbelievable this goes on in schools! If something serious were to happen to Claire in the toilet would it be the other 5 year old child's fault????

StanleyLambchop, I suspect your child's school is bullshitting. It is very difficult indeed to believe that they could not conceivably spare an adult for the relatively short space of time that would be needed to accompany your child to the toilet. I suggest you take this up with the LA - their safeguarding people may well have something to say about it - and also maybe get legal advice from an education lawyer.

Capsium,

Parents have a right for their child to be kept safe at school. Children have a right to be kept safe. Children also have a right to an education. It is a school's duty to provide this. Otherwise they cannot call themselves an effective school.

Fine, that's what RoseFerme's school is doing, and yes volunteering to walk the kids to and fro across the road could be deemed to be in breach of safeguarding. It just seems unreasonable to expect the Head to stop whatever she/he is doing, however important, to take them to the play park where the previous head either left them unsupervised or spent half an hour, more if twice a day, of well paid time on this tiny task.

Beershuffle - I am assuming the parents of this little girl had no idea it was going on until the OP raised it with the grandmother.

winkle I love it when HT's get involved with the day to day 'tiny' tasks, such as being present in the playground / at the school gates at drop off and pick up and supervising play occasionally. It sets a really good example to the teachers, that the head is prepared to get 'stuck in' and lets the parents and children get to know the HT better...they are not someone behind closed doors in an office.

Some HTs do do this sort of thing. I would not expect it, as a matter of course but I do really respect their commitment when they do.

Winklewoman - of course teachers need a break, but I thought that, in most schools, there was a rota, and each teacher does break time supervision duty in turn. Lunchtimes are supervised by the dinner time supervisors, but it is my understanding that teachers and TAs are responsible for break times.

In the situation Roseforme described, no-one appeared to be supervising break time - all the teachers were inside, whilst a 9-year-old was shepherding 19 other children - presumably some under 5-years-old - across the road. Do you think a child of that age should be doing that alone? Can you imagine the outrage if there was an accident while a 9-year-old was escorting children across the road? Can you imagine the effect on that child?

It is the school's responsibility to ensure proper supervision at break times, and this school were clearly abdicating this responsibility!

And regarding your flippant comment that Roseforme should volunteer - you do realise she'd need a CRB (or whatever it is called now) certificate, so she'd be allowed to be alone with the children - i suppose you'd expect her to pay for that. Or the school could - out of its limited budget.

Without giving aware too much info to 'out' myself, I have taken this to the(useless) governors who basically backed the school. My DD's class has 3 other DC with disabilities, therefore the school has achieved funding for an extra TA. However, two of the other DC's have very high needs, so managing them seems to be priority, as opposed to the relatively 'low' requirements of my DD, which is basically extra supervision when out of the classroom on her own. The school therefore cannot get another TA to help with my DD, as technically the extra TA they already have should be adequate between the four children, but it does not work like this in reality. I am not happy, but the rest of her care there is excellent, and there are no guarantees that if she changed schools she would get anything better. The discussions regarding her safety are on going. I think I will ask for another meeting. Thanks all for your advice, and good luck OP YANBU !

Surely if two of the children have 'very high needs' they have statement provision for their own ta? Or should do?

Have you been in touch with parent partnership? They can help with stuff like this

capsium I quite agree with you about HTs getting stuck in and being involved, but I do think think that the daily escorting duty of roseferme's previous head was absurd.

No STG , I think it is madness to allow a 9 year old to escort children across the road and to leave them there unsupervised and never said otherwise. However I felt that Roseferme was rather unreasonable to complain when they have a yard, although defined by RoseFerne as tiny (but who knows), nevertheless a safe place to play.

I know little about primary schools, but if teachers' breaks are staggered, how is a class taught when its teacher us having her/his break during lesson time?

Stanley - write to the headteacher, senco and LEA (copy to MP) and tell them you will hold them responsible at a personal and department level for any damage that occurs to your child as a result of her being inadequately supervised whilst on school property. State that you do not believe she can be kept safe being accompanied by a child. Mention the word safeguarding.

I have had success with that particular wording when social services were trying to cut ds1's support (which would have led to a similar situation - namely me having to supervise 3 children, including one severely autistic near traffic without support - it wasn't safe).

They particularly dislike the phrase 'I will hold you personally responsible'.

If they cannot allow the TA to leave the room for the 5 mins it would take to go to the toilet with your child, then someone in the class isn't being adequately supported and they need to sort it out.

winkle

I know little about primary schools, but if teachers' breaks are staggered, how is a class taught when its teacher us having her/his break during lesson time?

Same as when PPA time is covered?