the school are using 5yos to accompany an epileptic classmate going to the toilet [long]

[owlbegoing]

Yesterday I had a call from the school saying my DD had shut her finger in the toilet door, she was fine they were just applying a wet hand towel to it. When I picked her up at home time her fingers seemed fine if a little bruised so I asked her how it happened as we walked home. She told me that Claire namechanged had needed to go to the toilet and my DD was asked to go with her as Claire isn't allowed to go by herself. I asked my DD if she knew why Claire wasn't allowed to go by herself and she didn't know. Later I remembered that Claire has epilepsy, which I knew from helping on school trips.
So I talked to the teacher this morning...yes they are using other pupils to accompany Claire on her trips to the toilet during lesson time as they can't spare an adult to go with her!
But it's ok as Claire goes into the cubicle by herself!!
Apparently during during lunch etc they do have an adult to go with her.
When I said that she's just as likely to have a fit while washing her hands as sitting on the toilet that didn't seem to have occurred to her!
The children aren't aware of Claire's condition so how traumatic would it be for a 5 year old to witness when it's just the two of them let alone if it happened during a lesson with adults around!
The teacher tried to justify it by saying that Claire hasn't had a fit in school yet
This teacher only started in January and this system was already in place so she didn't question it!

Would I be over reacting to try to speak to the head of EYFS about this?

If you've managed to read this far, thanks.

its not the schools obligation/responsibility to take the LA to court. you might think it is. but it isn't.

No, I don't think it is, and I didn't say it was. What I pointed out was that it is incorrect for a school to sit back and fail to comply with safeguarding duties out of a belief that it is impossible to enforce duties under a child's statement when that is not the case.

Given that the school are allowing this to continue after your chat with them this morning, I'd probably give them a noir tomorrow morning staying clearly that you refuse permission for your child to be used in this role. Otherwise they may just pay lip service to your concerns.

You have you dealt with anyone having a seizure?

A person having a partial can either go blank for a few seconds, can appear to be daydreaming/fiddling with something, can become aggressive/frightened/confused, hallucinate, defecate, urinate, choke, vomit, injure themselves.

A person having a tonic will go rigid suddenly, and then drop to the floor.

A person having a tonic clonic, goes rigid suddenly, collapses. All muscles jerk, often violently. Sometimes they can bang their head. Sometimes they can end up with a friction burn. Sometimes they can have a serious injury. They often defecate, urinate, drool and might end up bleeding. They might need rescue medication by gum, rectum or injection. Sometimes they can vomit. They can choke on their vomit. They can wake up confused, drowsy, disorientated. They might have more than one seizure. They might go blue. They might have a different type of seizure to normal. They might in the very worst case scenario, rapidly become seriously unwell.

You have to support them to the floor, observe everything, time everything, whilst preventing serious injury to the person.

Do you honestly a think an untrained adult can easily do that, let alone a terrified 5 year old child?! What can a child do to help, short of run off for help leaving the fitting child unsupervised? What's to guarantee they would go for help? How would they know who to ask? Etc etc.

Do you honestly think a parent wanting to prevent their child from being put into that situation is just being unhelpful?!

nenny - children with SEN are not the only people with rights in a school.

the HTs job is to get the best from their budget for everyone. which involves trade-offs and often means no none gets what they are or might be entitled to.

shouldn't I have a close family member with epilepsy so yes. that was why I asked what sort the girl has....

A note!

I really don't know what the solution is here. If the child wanted to go during the lesson and there is no ta there what do you expect the teacher to do? She couldn't leave the class
I doubt she would attract funding for a TA just because of epilepsy.
I think it's the best solution albeit not ideal

Exactly maddy. No one is saying it is ideal. But when child with physical needs who cannot walk independently, needs help to transfer to a chair/toilet, daily physiotherapy and needs supervising while eating and drinking, only attracts 15 hours worth of funding, what hope does a child with epilepsy have? Maybe there is less money available here, or maybe the budget has to stretch further, I don't know. But even with statements, we are being awarded the bare minimum. Eg 30 minutes per day for physio, 1 hour per day to supervise lunch, 1 and a half hours for everything else- which doesn't take into account that the child's other needs can't be timetabled.

Sorry, You, headteachers who trade off the safety and statutory rights of children with disabilities and SEN against the 'rights' of other children in the school are breaking the law. I would hate to be a headteacher giving evidence at a child's inquest and having to explain that the reason I delegated the school's safeguarding responsibilities to another child was that I felt that that child's right to safety and life was outweighed by the rights of other children.

I really don't know what the solution is here. If the child wanted to go during the lesson and there is no ta there what do you expect the teacher to do?

I expect the school to have in place a medical needs plan which deals precisely with this eventuality. For instance, the teacher could validly send a child to go and fetch someone like a welfare assistant, or a TA from another class, or a teacher/TA from the staff room, or the receptionist. It would never be acceptable to get a 5 year old child to supervise a child with epilepsy.

I look after people with epilepsy and I still get quite scared at times when it happens.

I would not be happy about this at all.

If she needs to have someone take her to the toilet then surely she should have a statement of education and a one on one assistant, or at least someone available to take her to the toilet at class times.

The trouble is, so many schools shrug their shoulders and seem to accept inadequate funding. It happens far too often that parents of children with serious needs are told by schools that there is no point in applying for a statement, or in applying for extra support under a statement, because the LA won't give it - have a look at the SN boards here for examples. And of course LAs won't give the funding if schools help them to get away from it in that manner. Schools need to put in strong evidence to LAs as to why support is needed, and they need to advise parents to take these issues to tribunals. Advice line numbers are freely available via Mumsnet and numerous other resources.

Even without a statement, wouldn't she have an Individual Healthcare Plan? Does the school receive funding for these? Depending on the child's other needs, would epilepsy alone warrant a statement?

I'm totally stunned that the teachers at this school think that it is in any way appropriate for a 5 year old to basically be fulfilling a safeguarding function for Claire. If her epilepsy means that she must be accompanied to the toilet, then surely that has to be by an appropriate person - one who has been briefed on the medical issues and trained so that they know what to do should she have a fit. A classmate is not that person - not at 5 anyway.
It is unfair on both Claire and her classmates. I hope her family go to the school and make sure the proper safeguards are put in place for her.

Since the new SEN funding legislation schools are supposed to fund a child's additional needs up to 6k from their own SEN budget. After this they can apply for additional funding, to support high level needs by demonstrating the 6k spend. This school would not be able to demonstrate an additional spend because they are using other children to resource their SEN 'provision'.

6k would fund roughly 12-16 hours 1to1 exclusive support, the cost goes down if a TA is supporting a group.

Using this funding rational, it would make sense for the school to have a facility to page a floating TA / other member of staff to accompany this child to the toilet. This in itself should not require much additional resource. I wonder what amount the school are putting by for their SEN budget...

^that is 6k would fund 12-16 hours exclusive 1to1 support per week.

Personally I think there should be a plan to ensure the child goes to the toilet at break times in which could cut down extra visits so a TA/other member of staff should not have to be paged in lessons too often. Although this should be provided, without question, too.

Are you seriously saying it is acceptable leaving a child with epilepsy who has to be supervised going to the toilet in the care of a 5 year old child?^

I have no idea - because I have very few facts other than someone's grandma told someone else. however the school will have the facts

Ok Youremyfavouritewasteoftime but I said upthread that my DD has been given the same solution- a friend to accompany her to the toilet. So she had to tell the friend she had epilepsy, as the friend wanted to know why she had to keep going with her. My DD did not particularly want everyone to know, but she was forced to tell this friend, who may have possibly told others because you can't always rely on children to keep things secret. Her friend, I have been told, is 'very sensible', but even so, I am an adult and I find it distressing to witness a seizure- I know what to do, I go into auto- pilot when it is happening, but afterwards I am distressed, and I am not seven years old. I believe it is totally unacceptable , but the school insists it has no other solution due to staffing constraints.

Will you accept that I have the facts about my child's needs, the school have the facts too but are saying this is the only solution they can offer. The OP is not wrong to flag this up, and I would not blame the other child's parents in my case if they did so too. BTW, I could not care less if your HT DH thinks this is very unlikely. I suspect we are not two isolated cases but it is probably much more commonplace.

Disagree capsicum. If the other children are allowed to go to the toilet outwith break times it would be unfair not to allow Claire the same facility.
More to the point: it would be discrimination because of her disability and therefore illegal.

Agree totally that this should not be the job of a 5 year old.

We had a similar situation regarding playground supervision. Our DD was, on a rota, being asked to supervise the whole school (tiny school - about 20 pupils) crossing the road outside the school on a zebra crossing to the play park. This was on every sunny / not rainy day. She would have a week in a yellow vest in charge.

Teachers were inside, no windows overlooking, having their break. Previous head always did this herself. New head, no way. We complained that a 9 year old could not be put in charge (on a rota with 9-11 year olds) of this.

Guess what? No more play park, just the tiny school yard.

In both cases a young child might end up being blamed for an accident or issue entirely outside their control, feeling guilty or traumatised for years - all to save money / time / hassle.

Can the Head not wander down from his / her office and do this tiny job, what, twice a day?

I wouldn't discriminate. I would send all the children to the toilet at break times. I said in my post this child should be accompanied by a member of staff at other times too. The break times comment referred to just a preventative measure. It would also teach the other children to begin to go at breaks, which they have to do further up the school.

The child would presumably have to be supervised in the loo at breaktimes also, though maybe a playground supervisor could do it.