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AIBU?

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Original poster

the school are using 5yos to accompany an epileptic classmate going to the toilet [long]

221 replies

owlbegoing · 08/05/2014 11:43

Yesterday I had a call from the school saying my DD had shut her finger in the toilet door, she was fine they were just applying a wet hand towel to it. When I picked her up at home time her fingers seemed fine if a little bruised so I asked her how it happened as we walked home. She told me that Claire namechanged had needed to go to the toilet and my DD was asked to go with her as Claire isn't allowed to go by herself. I asked my DD if she knew why Claire wasn't allowed to go by herself and she didn't know. Later I remembered that Claire has epilepsy, which I knew from helping on school trips.
So I talked to the teacher this morning...yes they are using other pupils to accompany Claire on her trips to the toilet during lesson time as they can't spare an adult to go with her! Angry
But it's ok as Claire goes into the cubicle by herself!! Angry
Apparently during during lunch etc they do have an adult to go with her.
When I said that she's just as likely to have a fit while washing her hands as sitting on the toilet that didn't seem to have occurred to her!
The children aren't aware of Claire's condition so how traumatic would it be for a 5 year old to witness when it's just the two of them let alone if it happened during a lesson with adults around!
The teacher tried to justify it by saying that Claire hasn't had a fit in school yet
This teacher only started in January and this system was already in place so she didn't question it! Shock

Would I be over reacting to try to speak to the head of EYFS about this?

If you've managed to read this far, thanks.

OP posts:
capsium · 08/05/2014 21:30

Ok You what would your DH do. Would he have members of staff being able to be paged / phoned? Instead of relying on 5year olds to resource SEN provision?

Nennypops · 08/05/2014 21:31

You, the top-up fund cannot be too small. As I have just posted, it is the money over and above general SEN funding needed to deliver what is in an individual child's statement - it isn't a general fund. If the child left the school, that amount of money would follow the child to the next school.

zzzzz · 08/05/2014 21:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 08/05/2014 21:35

capsium it says "The mainstream school will therefore contribute £6,000 from its notional SEN budget"

but the actual budget is much less than 6k

Nennypops · 08/05/2014 21:35

You, I posted this earlier but don't seem to have had a reply. I'd be interested in your answer:

You: for immediate purposes, just suppose that what the OP says is true. There is a child with epilepsy who for that reason is supposed to be accompanied by an adult when she goes to the loo, and in practice the school is organising 5 year olds to do it.

Do you think that would be acceptable?

capsium · 08/05/2014 21:46

When I looked at the figures for the Primaries in our area, most had not spent all the funds they had received. It would have amounted to quite a bit of money, at a whole school level. Good job our LA was not clawing back funds in the past few years...

I think the thinking behind calculating SEN budgets may need a re think....

KatieKaye · 08/05/2014 21:52

They are 5, capsicum. Not letting go when they need to is asking for trouble and huge upset. It's not as simple as saying "make it so". It is unlikely that all children will be able to comply with this rule and it won't work. Which means you will have to let Claire go too.ight be something to work towards but a proper solution is needed now.
I'm wondering what risk assessment was carried out?

capsium · 08/05/2014 21:57

I repeat Katie, I said Claire should be allowed to go to the toilet whenever she needs, as should the other children. Also there should be an adult accompanying Claire.

All I said was they should, in addition, all be instructed to go to the toilets at break time, just as part of everyday practice. So they have actually gone to the toilet at breaks and not held off till lesson time.

Boaty · 08/05/2014 22:06

This situation is not new. In 1975 I was 9 when I was put in this position. My best friend at school was often off school 'poorly' but I didn't know why. She developed a severe headache and felt sick I was told to take her to the toilets and stay with her. She went into the cubicle and was sick..I went back to class and told the teacher and was told off for leaving her. I went back to the loos..She was sat on the floor in the cubicle....next thing she had a fit...I stood there petrified.. When she stopped shaking I ran back again to the teacher who told me off again and to go back and wait with her until she could come! Shock
It turned out she was known to be epileptic. Her parents had told my DGM but she thought it wasn't something you discussed with children! I still feel angry they thought I should deal with something I had no knowledge of and that I was told off for being worried!

Boaty · 08/05/2014 22:08

Oh and in my friends case a headache always preceded a fit and the school knew it! Angry

Quoteunquote · 08/05/2014 22:11

I have a friend, he is a father of two, he has epilepsy, he is never left in sole care of his children, because he may fit, the children are now seven and nine.

If it is deemed inadvisable for children who are use to epileptic fits in their parent not to be the only ones available, then I cannot see how inexperiance five year old can be expected to deal with a potentially dangerous and fighting situation.

KatieKaye · 08/05/2014 22:14

Sorry - I obviously didn't read the post properly.

Still wondering about the risk assessment the school carried out before deciding a 5 year old was the appropriate safeguard for Claire.

Because once they assessed there was a risk in her going to the toilet alone, they must have carried out a risk assessment, mustn't they? It does seem to be an almost infinitesimal risk, despite what her granny says (who only has intimate knowledge of Claire and the nature of her epilepsy after all) if a small child can deal with things and ensure Claire's safety.
Or maybe they just didn't bother... I mean, child has seizure, bangs head off porcelain toilet - well, the 5 year old can sort that out, can't she? and it isn't going to frighten her or anything like that. Confused

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 08/05/2014 22:19

Or if she goes into status epilepticus, and the child accompanying her panics and hides, and she ends up with lasting brain damage as a result.

calsmama · 08/05/2014 22:31

No children should walk around school alone, they should always have a peer with them in case they slip, take ill, meet an unknown adult etc etc. Your daughter's class should have the instruction that incase of emergency return to class and tell or find nearest adult on school staff.

I don't think it is so bad, that said I don't know how long they would wait outside Claire's cubicle before realising she wasn't coming out...

MrsMot · 08/05/2014 22:33

OP I don't want to derail. The UK's record for dealing with children with epilepsy is truly awful, always has been. Your child should not have the responsibility of doing this.

As for the talk about TAs? £18k oh I wish... I work 1-1 with a child with a full statement (32.5 hrs). I know that his family pay their cleaners more than I'm paid to keep a child with a very demanding profile.

beershuffle · 08/05/2014 22:46

Can I point out that this is a child with epilepsy, not "an epileptic". Please dont reduce a child simply to their disability.

This all sounds bizarre, obviously there has been no proper risk assessment or care plan put in place, and a child with uncontrolled epilepsy should not be attending school without these having been carried out first.

Pipbin · 09/05/2014 07:16

I thought that too MrsMot. DH is a TA and would love to earn £18k. Most TAs are on MW.

StanleyLambchop · 09/05/2014 08:03

Can I point out that this is a child with epilepsy, not "an epileptic". Please dont reduce a child simply to their disability.

My child has epilepsy, and while I would not describe her in that way most of the time, post seizure she just is 'epileptic'. There is no other way to describe it- eyes darting around, unable to focus or sit still, simply 'buzzing' whilst her brain sorts itself out. You would have to see it to believe it.

This all sounds bizarre, obviously there has been no proper risk assessment or care plan put in place, and a child with uncontrolled epilepsy should not be attending school without these having been carried out first.

DD's school has done a risk assessment, and being accompanied to the toilet by another pupil is written into her care plan. I don't know why people are so incredulous, this is straight up what is happening with my DD, I have said earlier I doubt mine and the OP's cases are two isolated cases either.

beershuffle · 09/05/2014 09:00

I do see it as I hafe a child with epilepsy, and I dont appreciate them being called the epileptic kid.
I also wouldnt be happy about my child being discussed like this on an open forum.

beershuffle · 09/05/2014 09:04

Also if this is the care plsn for your child as well, your school is just as shit. Whst on earth are you doing putting your own and other peoples children at risk in this way? If your child needs accompanying to the bathroom another child is not at all suitable for that job.

BalloonSlayer · 09/05/2014 09:18

It may be that the school cannot provide an adult to accompany Claire to the toilet unless Claire has a statement of special needs. Because it would probably have to be two adults, wouldn't it, for safeguarding purposes? If the family are unwilling to apply for a statement then there is not a lot the school can do.

The family may well be complaining that an adult should go with her but the school can't do it without a statement, the family don't want her statemented, so they go round and round in circles.

I knew of a child a few years ago who had different toileting issues and needed changing. The parents did not want a statement but were miffed at being asked to come in to change the child. The school would have happily had changed the child but only if this was stipulated on an SEN statement. This case involved learning difficulties though, I think the parents felt there was a stigma attached to getting a statement, which may not apply in this case.

Am happy to be told I am talking bollocks though, my info is probably quite out of date!

StanleyLambchop · 09/05/2014 09:25

I do see it as I hafe a child with epilepsy, and I dont appreciate them being called the epileptic kid. Well we will have to agree to differ then!

Also if this is the care plsn for your child as well, your school is just as shit. Whst on earth are you doing putting your own and other peoples children at risk in this way? If your child needs accompanying to the bathroom another child is not at all suitable for that job.

Well I agree with you on that one, but the school simply said they had no extra staff available, and they could not afford someone else to do the role. What can I do ? I have discussed it at length with them, the situation is on going as they know I am not happy, meanwhile my child has to go to school. It would be more damaging to her education to keep her off over the issue, especially as we now have better control over her seizures than when she was first diagnosed. What does your 'non shit' school do then, if you don't mind revealing that on an open forum?

BTW I am not responsible for or even able to fight the corner of the other child involved. I can only fight for my child. If her parents have not complained it I can't make them.

OiYou · 09/05/2014 09:32

I'd be fuckingn furious OP. If I were the parent of either child.

zzzzz · 09/05/2014 09:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

winklewoman · 09/05/2014 09:45

Roseformeplease

Teachers having a break! How shocking!
If you were so concerned why did you not volunteer to do this "tiny job"?

We had a similar situation regarding playground supervision. Our DD was, on a rota, being asked to supervise the whole school (tiny school - about 20 pupils) crossing the road outside the school on a zebra crossing to the play park. This was on every sunny / not rainy day. She would have a week in a yellow vest in charge.

Teachers were inside, no windows overlooking, having their break. Previous head always did this herself. New head, no way. We complained that a 9 year old could not be put in charge (on a rota with 9-11 year olds) of this.

Guess what? No more play park, just the tiny school yard.

In both cases a young child might end up being blamed for an accident or issue entirely outside their control, feeling guilty or traumatised for years - all to save money / time / hassle.

Can the Head not wander down from his / her office and do this tiny job, what, twice a day?

No, because he/she is a Head teacher not Head Childminder.

Totally different from the OP's scenario.

OP, YANBU.