the school are using 5yos to accompany an epileptic classmate going to the toilet [long]

[owlbegoing]

Yesterday I had a call from the school saying my DD had shut her finger in the toilet door, she was fine they were just applying a wet hand towel to it. When I picked her up at home time her fingers seemed fine if a little bruised so I asked her how it happened as we walked home. She told me that Claire namechanged had needed to go to the toilet and my DD was asked to go with her as Claire isn't allowed to go by herself. I asked my DD if she knew why Claire wasn't allowed to go by herself and she didn't know. Later I remembered that Claire has epilepsy, which I knew from helping on school trips.
So I talked to the teacher this morning...yes they are using other pupils to accompany Claire on her trips to the toilet during lesson time as they can't spare an adult to go with her!
But it's ok as Claire goes into the cubicle by herself!!
Apparently during during lunch etc they do have an adult to go with her.
When I said that she's just as likely to have a fit while washing her hands as sitting on the toilet that didn't seem to have occurred to her!
The children aren't aware of Claire's condition so how traumatic would it be for a 5 year old to witness when it's just the two of them let alone if it happened during a lesson with adults around!
The teacher tried to justify it by saying that Claire hasn't had a fit in school yet
This teacher only started in January and this system was already in place so she didn't question it!

Would I be over reacting to try to speak to the head of EYFS about this?

If you've managed to read this far, thanks.

If the kids were told to get an adult if she falls, that would be different. But they don't even know why they're going in there with her. You're expecting a 5 year old to make a snap judgement in a situation that they are not even prepared for.

A five year old could get help, they could stare in shock. They could run and hide. It's very likely that they could get scared that they'll get into trouble for something happening and they won't get anyone. Or if she's in the stall alone, they very likely won't even know anything is happening. They'll be standing there waiting, until a teacher checks on them and by then, what's the point?

If they're going to do this, the kids need to be trained for what to do if she has a seizure at the very least.

This sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

It does irritate me when schools fail to provide support for children like Claire and refer to lack of funds. If Claire needs support which is over and above what they can provide under SEN funds delegated to the school, then they should be applying on her behalf for a statement. If they haven't done that, they have no excuse at all for failing to organise a TA, and they certainly shouldn't be saving themselves money by delegating children to do this.

I also don't think the Kevin and Dave scenario is in the least appropriate. Kevin may be entirely sensible, but he is a child. If Dave has a seizure at a point when Kevin is distracted or maybe feeling a bit unwell himself, and is injured as a result, poor Kevin is probably going to feel endlessly guilty; and Dave's parents (and potentially the courts) are going to be extremely unimpressed by the school's protestations that they left Kevin in charge.

The school should have in place a full risk assessment and medical plan for Claire which should include arrangements for her being accompanied to the loo by a trained adult who knows what to do if she has a seizure. Relying on the fact that she hasn't had any in school to date is ridiculous. Others will know more about this than I do, but my understanding is that some types of epilepsy manifest themselves in clusters of seizures after which the child may go without for several weeks, so you can never be complacent about it.

You - if Claire just has absences that you wouldn't even notice then no other child would need to be sent with her. It doesn't matter what is causing her to need to be accompanied to the toilet, the OP doesn't need to know the why. The fact is she does need to be accompanied and they are using children to do so.

You, with every respect to your DH, his experience of what happens in every other school and type of school in the country is hardly likely to be comprehensive.

No school can reasonably say that, if a child needs a TA in order to keep her safe and indeed alive, that is a "bad way for schools to spend their budget from a wider educational perspective." If providing this will take a TA away from work for which she is needed, the school needs to apply to the local authority for extra funding.

The simple fact that we do know is that this is a child who apparently cannot go to the loo on her own. The grandmother has confirmed that this is because of her epilepsy. There can be no excuse for delegating responsibility for this to 5 year olds.

I can try to answer this from the child point of view,

I arrived at a new boarding school at 8pm at night, quickly unpacked and met the other house members (house parents and pupils), I had been assigned a room with another new girl,

we went to bed, it was her first time at boarding school, went to sleep, I was awoken a couple of hours later by horrendous noise and things being thrown at me in the dark, struggled for a light switch,

My room mate was having a fit, her face was smashed open, blood everywhere,

I dragged her on to the floor on her mattress, ran out the room banged on doors, including my house parents,

No one had bothered to tell me that she was epileptic (this lead me to believe they were a bunch of first class twonks (the staff)), it was a really nasty way to find out, and I was sixteen, not five.

I really wouldn't wish being surprised by a fitting person on anyone, let alone a child.

We ended up good friends, she had many more fits, and died in her twenties from complications.

Just ask to see the risk assessment, and that will be an end to their ill thought out plan.

nenny - it does irritate me when posters talk funding for SEN like they have read a text book on it but have no idea how it actually works.

my local LA has a pot of money for SEN which is smaller than the amounts schools are asking for so schools get a percentage of the money they need. so it is all well and good saying they can apply for money.

its just the getting the money that cannot happen.

nenny - yes they can in terms of the general education of the entire school because that what meta studies say.

every £1 spent on a low skilled TA can be better spent on a teacher. specialist TAs are a useful way to spend the schools money if given specific tasks.

this is what research tells us. HTs don't just guess these things they look a large scale studies to work out how best to spend the schools budget. they don't just spend on a whim.

Exactly you. Of course there should be funding for this girl. But it's going to mean a full time member of staff. Not someone who is just there when she needs a wee.
Applying for funding is one thing but getting it is another.

Of course this child is at a very serious risk and she should have a 1-1, but the glib 'apply for funding' is annoying.

Moreover, all this is a bit second hand. If the op was the girls mother then fair enough, but she isn't and may not be in full possession of the facts.

OP has had it confirmed by the gran that Claire has epilepsy. She has had it confirmed by the school that these supervised visits are taking place.

That's all she needs to know to say "please don't involve my child"

The OP is the mother of the other child involved.

It's not just for someone who knows the full facts to judge that OP's child can accompany someone who needs supervision to go to the loo. The OP should certainly have a say.

fair enough. hears hoping the other parents aren't so mean spirited to some poor girl wanting a wee.

posters here are soooooo far away from the realties. children's social services is so snowed under that only violence against babies and sexual abuse gets a rapid response.

that is the state of funding for children in the UK. you are in la la land of you think there are pots of money to care for children based on their needs.

A similar thing is happening to me at work as an adult - I have whined about it on here many times!

While I'm not saying leave her to it, I don't think it's right that a child is sent to accompany here, but what my issue is, is that it's putting such a huge emphasis on something, which I feel will have a negative influence on the child regarding actually doing things on her own in later life?

nenny - it does irritate me when posters talk funding for SEN like they have read a text book on it but have no idea how it actually works.

However, I do know how it works. I have read the SEN and school funding rules, attended training on it, work with those rules regularly.

my local LA has a pot of money for SEN which is smaller than the amounts schools are asking for so schools get a percentage of the money they need. so it is all well and good saying they can apply for money. its just the getting the money that cannot happen.

So if the money is inadequate, the school should make an application for the child to be the subject of statutory assessment with a view to getting a statement. If that is refused, it should support the parent with appealing to the tribunal. And it should support the parent also with advice as to the support that needs to be written into the statement. Once it is in the statement, the LA has to provide that support by law and fund it.

It can't avoid the duty to do so by delegating 5 year olds.

every 1 spent on a low skilled TA can be better spent on a teacher.

Sure. However, if the school cannot provide an adult to keep a 5 year old child with epilepsy safe, then it really doesn't matter how many teachers they have. If that child is injured or dies because of the school's lack of care, it will be no defence to say they thought it would be better to spend money on teachers.

nenny - I am talking about children with statements....of course..... that's how the funding works.....

the LA has to provide that support by law and fund it. but they don't and that is what I am talking about.

do you see the realities are not the same as your text books. so the school do their duty - but the money does not come.

how clearer can I make this?

fair enough. hears hoping the other parents aren't so mean spirited to some poor girl wanting a wee.

Seriously? Are you seriously saying it is acceptable leaving a child with epilepsy who has to be supervised going to the toilet in the care of a 5 year old child? It's nothing to do with other parents being mean spirited, it's to do with the school's duty of care in law. I would love to know whether this school is insured, and if so, whether its insurance company knows what is going on.

If that child is injured or dies because of the school's lack of care, it will be no defence to say they thought it would be better to spend money on teachers.

but you would not put a general TA with a child with high needs which I have already covered.

to get 'full time' funding - which is for much less hours than full time, you would need a child with autism who needed someone with them all the time for very basic safety reasons and so they did not wander in class. which is clearly not the level of need of the child in the OP.

again you ideal of How It Works is just very wrong.

Are you seriously saying it is acceptable leaving a child with epilepsy who has to be supervised going to the toilet in the care of a 5 year old child?

I have no idea - because I have very few facts other than someone's grandma told someone else. however the school will have the facts.

You: it's not a matter of what is in text books. No school can decide to ignore the law because it's just stuff in textbooks, nor can any local authority.

A school cannot say that it shouldn't bother to provide what children need for their day to day safety because it can't afford it and won't get the money out of the local authority. It is absolutely not true to say that the LA can't be forced to provide what is in a statement. If it does not do so, it can be taken to court, and children will get legal aid to cover the costs involved. That is the reality, and if schools can't be bothered to find out about it they really only have themselves to blame when they get into difficulties.

There are far, far too many children in the UK who are going without help they desperately need because schools shrug their shoulders and tell parents they haven't got the money for it and it's much, much too difficult to get it.

You: for immediate purposes, just suppose that what the OP says is true. There is a child with epilepsy who for that reason is supposed to be accompanied by an adult when she goes to the loo, and in practice the school is organising 5 year olds to do it.

Do you think that would be acceptable?

its not the schools obligation/responsibility to take the LA to court.

you might think it is. but it isn't.

the op does not know what sort of epilepsy the girl has.

Does the sort matter? The point is she is supposed to be accompanied by an adult but is actually accompanied by a small child.

You, I don't follow your polnt about not putting a general TA with a child with high needs.

For this child, you wouldn't necessarily need even a general TA. Some schools employ welfare assistants - you could make an arrangement for them to be called if Claire needs to go to the loo. Or you could arrange to call on a TA in another class who doesn't need to be with them every minute. If you've got CRB checked adults coming in to help with reading etc, you could use one of them if they are willing.

But ultimately, if you can't do any of that, you cannot say that you will refuse to follow the requirements of a risk assessment for a child with a known medical condition because you haven't got the money. Because you will find yourself in trouble on child protection and equality grounds, and if the child is injured you will find yourself in very expensive trouble.

Please stop saying I don't know how it works. Take it from me, I do.