to feel screwed over by our society, can't afford a home, can't afford children, can't afford car

[Lauranda]

I'm in my early 30s, had a great up bringing, do a job I like and got married last year. I do feel very lucky.

However where we live in the south east, all we can afford to rent is a badly converted 1 bed flat with a damp problem. Can't really save much and are very economical with our money so can't see ever affording anything bigger and could never bring up a child here.

My parents managed to get a large 4 bed Edwardian house on one sallery when I was growing up and dads job level was about the same as dh. No way could with double sallarys afford anything near that lifestyle.

Parents keep saying my time will come, but looking at the statistics that seams very wishful thinking. Parents have kindly offered 15k to help get a house but to be any use would need much more than that and to pray interest rates never rose much.

Am I alone in just being unable to afford children even though we both work full time?

22, I'm working class.

I got on a train at 18 and went to where the work was, as did my husband.

You ask why I'm applying my experiences to other people, why are you doing the same?

My parents and my husband's parents do not earn enough to help support me and my husband, so we have to support ourselves. We moved away young and have continued to move since - we still rent, but are saving up to buy - we will probably buy when both kids are in secondary school as we will not be paying childcare then.

My friend has a neighbour in her tenement block who brought up two children in a teeny one bed flat. The parents slept on a fold up bed in the combined living room/kitchen and their sons had the bedroom. At uni my (mature) flatmate's boyfriend hadn't even had a bedroom. He slept on a sofa. Didn't even have his own sofa. Shared it with his brother. My own parents sometimes went without meals so that me and my brother could eat.

Not everyone of your parents' generation had it easy.

whatever5, how do you know most people wouldn't suffer considerably?

I know that most people wouldn't suffer considerably because I know a very large number of people who have moved at some time in their lives and none of them have "suffered considerably". I know people who have suffered a lot in life but that is usually because of ill health, bereavement etc not because they hav e had to moved a few from the place they were born. It's not that terrible a hardship in the grand scheme of things.

Sorry 22, x posted with your last one.

It was purely to not be on benefits that I moved, so I can't empathise with your point there. But I had no children when I left at 18, so no ties or responsibility at that time - only myself to think about, so completely different.

It was moving away that made me self sufficient though, so now I don't need my family all these years later; I actually hope that my boys do the same when they're 18 tbh.

Possum I agree its not something a lot of people can afford at the moment. However my good friend, mid 20s and her partner bought their first 2 bedroom house with a garden last year, she is now ttc. She is a nursery nurse and he has a low paid manual labouring job. Neither are high earners but because of having a job at all and a deposit from their parents she has been able to buy this house right in her home town. Could this happen where the OP is? It doesnt sound like it, and I do feel for people in these situations who are forced to accept they cannot build their own family lives in the place where they were brought up. This means a lot to a lot of people.

Uncle T, there were no assumptions about class made purely that many people are never going to have a high paying job (whos going to clean, flip burgers and all those other necessary jobs if everyone in the world just aimed higher and earnt more money, as has been suggested on this thread lots of times?) and those people shouldnt be stigmatized and forced to move away from their family and community to have any resemblance of a life when often poorer people are the ones who need support from family and friends more.

My dad, who had a similar background to you UncleT left the country and now owns several businesses and properties and is rather well off. He regrets ever going because he missed out on me growing up because of it. He has suffered depression because of this (its a long story i wont bore you with now) and despite fulfilling his career and cash dreams after coming from a poor as hell working class background, still regrets it because he missed out on something more important, family. Although personally Im glad he went because I've had lots of dream 5* holidays I never would have had had he stayed here.

OP, I'm itching to find you a property to buy - if you give me your rough location and maximum mortgage lending, based on both your salaries, I bet I can find you something affordable!

Like a lot of people though you may have to commute a reasonable distance and limit bedrooms for a first time buy.

22honey, I agree with you. I think the importance of family and community and belonging is underestimated. I think it is a deep, deep instinctive need that has evolved inside us and that the lack of it does contribute to poor mental and physical health. We have no family anywhere near, they are the other side of the country, and raising our baby son has been very hard without any support.

Scarlett, the fact is that it is not an acceptable thing for many people. What about people who suffer from depression, anxiety, agoraphobia, PTSD etc? Yes they could do to get treatment, but it really wouldnt be good for a vulnerable, not sound minded like yourself, person to have to leave the local area if thats where they feel safe and secure.

I'm not applying my personal experience to other people because I've never had to move away, I'm stating that there are real reasons why it wouldnt be a good idea for many people to have to move away from home. What if their parents are becoming elderly and you need to stay close to support them? Or will you just say 'sod your parents, sod your entire family money and work is more important'? Not everyone agrees with that.

I don't disagree in principle about the fact that it's sad we can't prioritise family, friends and community to the extent we'd like, but I guess I still just don't see it as being 'screwed over'. I would also love to buy a house (13 years on from graduation) but for the sake of my own mental health if nothing else have to try and make some peace with reality and deal with it in the best possible way. Life is, for better or for worse, full of compromises for many of us.

22, I had pnd, I am currently on ad's and have been for the last 2 years. I have been in hospital several times over the last year with a newly diagnosed chronic condition and had a major operation this year. There has been plenty more over the last 21 years, but that's the latest.

All this with no extended family near - we coped because we have our own family unit (me, husband and 2 boys) who give each other strength and we are completely self reliant. I have good friends and work colleagues as does my husband who were offering more help than we could have a stick at.

Please don't make sweeping assertions that only those lucky enough o have 'sound mind' can cope with living in a different part of the country to their parents, as that is a very naive view to have.

I was that lonely single mother with no family around. I have suffered with depression. I've had no one to help financially or emotionally whilst I brought up my son. You know what. I made it. It's not been easy. But it's shaped who I am.

UncleT I do agree about having to accept things sometimes, but I do also feel strongly someone should be able to bring their children up near their parents and family if that is what they long for. Obviously, sacrifices often have to be made in order for this to happen but it sounds to me like in certain areas this is literally impossible for people even on a good wage, and that to me is really unfair.

I feel lucky to live somewhere where even poor people and those without good jobs can live relatively comfortably (ie, have a 2 bedroomed house with a garden even if your one of the low paid, something that seems to me as impossible where the OP is from, 2 professionals only can afford a dingy and damp 1 bed flat is utterly awful imo). For me, buying a house isn't even a consideration at the moment as things just wont allow it, I cant deny either I would like to own my own house but things havnt turned out exactly how I would have planned in my life, I think thats the case for a lot of people so do accept your point.

I think it depends on your own upbringing too, I didn't grow up near extended family either - my parents left home at 17 (they were from opposite ends of the country too) and moved away to broaden horizons.

It is probably harder to leave if you grew up near a large extended family, but it isn't impossible.

Funky, it is 100 times harder to be completely alone I'm sure. I have been genuinely awed by the resilience of the single mums I have been friends with over the years, living miles from family.

Funkybarn and yes you should be applauded for your resilience, but you cannot apply your exact situation for everyone. People all cope differently, and though I'm sure you don't regret it I would think at the time you would have hugely benefited from support and would have had an easier time of it with it. If people can get through life without misery and struggle I would personally rather them have that, especially when it could all be prevented purely by ridiculous economics enforced by ivory tower rich people who are out of touch with the average person.

Again Scarlett, you cannot apply your personal situation to everyone else. Some people struggle to make new friends, there are a lot of people who struggle immensely to get on with/trust new people. You are seriously propagating the idea because you personally have coped ok under difficult circumstances, that everyone else should be able to aswell and thus should have to, because you have.

Its an ignorant stance to take and stinks of 'everyone else should suffer/have to do something unpleasant because I have'. Sorry if thats not how you feel but thats how it comes across.

Scarlett I do agree if you didn't grow up near extended family it would be easier to leave the area.

'It is probably harder to leave if you grew up near large extended family, but it isnt impossible' - but why should someone have to when they don't want to and it will cause them significant distress and loneliness/depression to do so?

22, please don't infer that I want people to suffer or do something unpleasant because I have.

I haven't suffered, I didn't do anything that I found unpleasant. I made a choice that suited me at the time, to get away from an area with low employment.

I have no sympathy with 'poor me' because life is not handed to you unless you are extremely fortunate. You go through life making choices, some more difficult or unpalatable than others; I don't know how old you are, or what age you left home - but my experience colours my world view, as does yours. I am 39, left home at 18, lived in 4 different countries and have moved roughly every 4 years - I am just saying it is not impossible to do.

It depends what your priorities are -mine are not my extended family, my priority is my immediate family and I would do anything to make sure that they are happy, safe and secure. Maybe that seems selfish to some, but that is my reality - so any feelings I may have are coloured by that.

You were saying you were depressed etc, to me as someone who has had depression aswell, that means suffering? If you didn't find it unpleasant, then you really cannot comment on the feelings of people who would find it unpleasant.

I was the one who suggested moving is a class issue as those of us who for a few generations have moved away from home for university are used to it (although of course it's hard). When my father was ill he had a team of lovely ladies caring for him, salt of the earth, who had never moved away from family. I know they felt it was extraordinary, as if we did not love him, that we had moved after university to other parts of the country. They could not understand it. Yet he and we (who did of course love each other) had exactly what we wanted and felt was right and best for our families. I felt there was a divide there and a divide now but I accept it is not just class. My grandmother in the 1920s took a ship to India to work as a servant for work. Some families just have that kind of work ethic and others don't.

Some are moaners. Some are doers.
I suppose all we can say is the doers amongst us are here willing to help the others. As Melonade said we Action Women are keen to help the OP and we just need the two incomes and area and we can take up that challenge to make things happen and see what properties might be bought and what efforts would need to be made to achieve that.

We all have loads of difficulties in life and it's how we deal with them that matters.

How to change one family into the other kind for the good of the children is fascinating. The Government is working on 100,000 families at the moment who are core problem ones with a massive range of issues each and trying to solve those. There are many others without those major issues, but some, who seem to want to see problems not solutions. How to move your family into the solutions action subset from the other could revolutionalise the lives of women on this thread.

'I am 39, left home at 18, lived in 4 different countries and have moved roughly every 4 years - I am just saying it is not impossible to do.'

This lifestyle would be many, many people's idea of hell. You may aswell buy a caravan and join the travelling community.

Its not impossible, its not how many people want to live their lives though, why should someone be forced to live a lifestyle that doesnt appeal in the slightest and might even make them miserable?

My priority is also my immediate family, and it benefits and is better for us to be near extended family. I imagine its the same for many people, but unfortunately for them they happen to be from the South East.

Its an ignorant stance to take and stinks of 'everyone else should suffer/have to do something unpleasant because I have'. Sorry if thats not how you feel but thats how it comes across.

22, those were your exact words, which I took to be your response to me saying moving is not impossible and answered you as such.

You then said that that was in fact in response to me saying I had had, and subsequently coped with, depression, whilst living away from extended family:

You were saying you were depressed etc, to me as someone who has had depression aswell, that means suffering? If you didn't find it unpleasant, then you really cannot comment on the feelings of people who would find it unpleasant.

I can assure you I did find depression unpleasant, very much so. Please do not try and twist my words into something they were not - at no point did I undermine anyone with depression or comment on what their feelings may or may not be.

I am not suggesting for a moment that people do that 22, as you well know.

I said that those experiences are what has coloured my world view and perception now, and accepted that this means I view things differently.

You are being deliberately disingenuous now.

Jessica its rather insulting to infer because someone stays near their parents and community and would rather sacrifice work/money for family, that they are a 'moaner' and lack work ethic.

'I am 39, left home at 18, lived in 4 different countries and have moved roughly every 4 years - I am just saying it is not impossible to do.' This lifestyle would be many, many people's idea of hell. You may aswell buy a caravan and join the travelling community

Charming. That's what I did. Left home at 18 for uni, working abroad in the holidays, then worked in another city for about 3 years, got a better job for 18 months, then went abroad to work (out of curiosity/desire to travel) for 3 years, then did a postgraduate degree abroad, back to original city for 3 years, current city for 4, thinking of moving back abroad or to England (if Scotland becomes independent). But hey, since my parents died in the middle of all of this, I don't really have the choice of staying in one place to be near them.

Mind you, most of my friends in medicine have to move every year or so. A lot of them have had stints of a few years working abroad too. Come to think of it, my grandmother ended up about 300 miles from where she was born, with a couple of longish stints in different cities due to work and husband's work. And my grandfather was born in a different country entirely but moved here for work, trying out 2 cities before ending up in a small village.

Mind you, considering most of our ancestors managed to get here on boats in the 5th and 6th Centuries, that's nothing!

Scarlett you are now pointlessly picking posts apart. You stated you had moved away and suffered depression, I take that as meaning suffering (just my way of putting it, fgs!), you said it in a way that implied moving away was tough for you and caused you to have depression, hence the post of mine.

The point about finding something unpleasant was about moving away, not having depression (which is more than just unpleasant as you would know).

I have to say I really struggled with that post because its just you pointlessly picking things apart to try and act like you don't know what I mean, and I'm really not on this thread to waste my time with such things.

Melonade theres nothing wrong with that lifestyle if thats what you want, you cannot propagate it as a universally acceptable way of like Scarlett has as many people would find such a lifestyle hell on earth...surely you can comprehend that?

Its not insulting to say 'you may aswell buy a caravan etc'- many people would think you might aswell if you move so often. Plenty of people do not want to move around here there and everywhere, if thats what suits you then fine but like the other poster you must recognise that such a lifestyle would tip many people over the edge.

I'm sorry about your parents, truly but thats not really relevant to what we are discussing and it sounds like you merely took offence to my opinion which is ridiculous.