To refuse to move to USA with hubby

[CookieTramp]

I don't know what I'm really after here, but please offer your perspective.

We moved to where we are 2 years ago and I love it. Ds1 hs in reception class at school and it's a great school. I have a 4mo baby.

Husband's company wants him in NY and has upped offer to $150,000, and DH says we will be able to save £1000+ a month on that, whereas here we are not able to save. I don't work at the moment, except a little freelance from home.

The main reasons I can't agree are: 1. My mum. She is more my mainstay than DH, really. She has a fantastic bond with DS1 and will have with DS2. We need her and also it will break her heart. We have very little family and my dad died 7 years ago. 2. We will lose the school place and with the squeeze on places could easily get one out of area. 3. I do not know if we really will save what DH says and no clue how to work it out definitively. Relocation package is €5,000, which to me seems like it won't touch the sides what with flights to and fro and furnishing a 4-bed house out there from scratch.

Main issue I suppose is our relationship is not great and DH has never grasped the concept of emotional support. He takes his responsibilities seriously and gives lots of his time to the kids but I don't feel he is really there for me. I'm too scared to leave all my other supports and put myself in a position where he is all I have. We were in Relate last year and DS2 was conceived in fit of optimism thereafter.

So DH is desperate to go, as the job there is beyond his wildest dreams. I would hate to hold him back from that. One possibility is he goes for a year on his own (he needs at least the first two big projects) but how could I do that to DS1, even if I could do it to DH?!

It seems impossible whichever way I turn and we need to decide soon. Hubby keeps saying about financial gain (but is it really?!) and I will make new friends but the biggest loss is my mum and the school place. dH says would be for a couple of years.

Over to you. I am soooo stressed and distressed.

Ime many Americans socialize through their church (whatever it is, there is a huge selection). I that isn't an option it is harder to meet people.

Ime many Americans socialize through their church

Not in New Jersey. This is probably true of the whole of the South and Midwest, but the NYC area is not part of Jesus-land.

When I lived there I met my friends through taking classes in creative writing, volunteering, work, a Yahoo Meet-Up group for expat Brits, and La Leche League (the closest thing you get to NCT in America).

Agree with Natasha and Bruno. You're already having difficulties and complaining about the lack of emotional support he provides you with, stating that your Mum is the mainstay rather your husband. This is not the time to be embarking on an "adventure"! Especially to a country which has such black and white immigration legislation.

You say you have to choose between you being unhappy and your DS being sad at his father's absence. Firstly, if DH leaves to go on his own that his choice, not yours. He's the one that should feel guilty. Secondly, play it forward- how upset would your son be if you spilt up (because you have zero support and feel lonely and depressed) and you had to go back to the UK, leaving him with an emotionally distant father, no Mum and no Granny?

All the chat about salary and relocation allowances is so so so immaterial compared to this.

juneau - I don't know about New Jersey - but lots/most of California and places like Chicago - are still very "place of worship" based for socialising. There are even "churches" for people of no faith - but who like singing and socialising on Sunday and Sunday school for the children.

OP I love the US, but wouldn't go in your circumstances, with that little relocation or salary. NYC is not rural Utah.

I've just skimmed this thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned:

1. Schools: Not quite sure what age Reception kids are, but in the US the general rule is kids turn 6 in Kindergarten. It can vary from city to city but just watch that your child would be eligible for Kindergarten. Of course if you are doing private school may be this isn't an issue.
2. Tax: check into the tax treaty between US/UK. Used to be if you stayed less than 2 years you did not have to pay US taxes. BUT: if you stay 1 day over the 2 years, you must pay all tax for the duration of your stay plus interest plus penalties for late payment.
3. Socializing through church is a huge generalization, like saying all British people love tea and crumpets. May be in the southern states there is some truth in this?

Wow, thanks everyone. Both perspective and new facts given are invaluable to me. Some responses:

1. I am a sleep-deprived chump and did mean $150,000, in dollars, not Euros. The mooted moving package is £5000, in pounds.
2. tiggytape and whoever else mentioned schools, yes, this is a big issue in our area. We struck lucky with getting into the second-best primary in our town, and I am very worried about having to go totally out of area when we come back. It’s a known issue locally already.
3. Thomyorke, you speak good sense. I don’t want to muddy the waters about why I don’t want to go – they are 1. Relationship, 2. Mum, 3. Schools. It’s not because the money isn’t good enough, you’re right. But, if they offered $200,000 I feel like I would just have to go because the gains are unarguable (or are they?! I thought so until today). So that’s the only way really that money is an issue. But you are right and I’m going to focus on only the reasons I don’t want to go.
4. To clarify, the healthcare package included is pretty solid – as I understand it, the best kind you can get, but I do know from my visit last year that co-pays, etc. are an issue. But they’ll be the least kind of issue you can get in that respect.
5. Juneau I totally hear you. I think we’re pretty shonky here, where everything else is easy and I do think it’s nearly a dead-cert to crumble when all we have (or all I have, as DH is pretty self-contained) is each other.
6. Dixiechick1975 and Juneau, I don’t think school is an issue in that regard, with DS1 not starting school for another year there and us having to meet cost of pre-school. DS1 is 6 in October so would probably be starting school with all the other kids in the area there, and therefore not even contend with being the new boy. I need to double-check this but that was what I gleaned from chatting with Brooklyn mummies (lovely, they were!) last year. And I hear you on the 2 cars – have added that to list.
7. Buildersbilly, yes, that is my worry. I am pretty sociable and find it easy to chat to people, but have no idea what to expect out there in terms of how long a really meaningful (rather than acquaintance-based) social network would take to build.
8. BrunoBrookes you sum it up very well and very clearly. Really appreciate your perspective.
9. stopgap will look into that shirt thing. That’s the first I have heard of that!
10. dreamingbohemian and natashabee, oh my god, I had no idea about that. Wouldn’t even have thought to check because it would not have crossed my mind that I would lose the right to bring the kids back if I really, really needed to. Thank you soooooooo much for bringing that to my attention. It’s kind of a nail in the coffin, isn’t it! DH will say that that would never happen, and I do think that it would never happen, but the fact remains, it could if things got acrimonious. Which they’re not now, but they could. And if it can happen, I can’t risk it.
11. cingolimama, I’m not sure it’s fear, but you could be right and I’m in denial. I like to think I am being clear-headed, but it was worrying that I might not be that made me post on here in the first place.

As to everyone else I haven’t addressed directly, thank you so much. The sheer weight of opinion here is very hard to ignore. DH makes me feel so unreasonable when I cite reasons I can’t go that I start to think I must be being unreasonable. I did read him some of the responses on here this morning, really thinking he would go ‘OK, wow, we really do need to look further into this and extract firm statements from the company on lots of issues’, but he actually said, ‘OK so what do you want me to take from this?’. He dismissed a lot of the feedback on figures by saying ‘That’s probably from people in the financial business saying $150,000 isn’t enough, and people saying £5k moving package isn’t enough are probably in the same line of work’. He just isn’t listening. I think because he knows I don’t want to go, he thinks I’ve sought out obstacles rather than really important issues that need considering.

Just FYI, I lived in Japan for 3 years by myself, and in the US for 6 months, all before marriage and children. I’m pretty easy about living abroad, just not in the current circumstances! ?.

Apologies if someone has mentioned this already- If your marriage is possibly shaky you must look into child custody rules. If you move to the States and decide to get a divorce, I was always under the impression that the children will be kept in the country where they are settled and currently reside. ie if they are living in the States and have been doing so for a while, in school, etc, I would be very concerned that upon divorce a judge would rule you couldn't take them back to UK if your husband refused to move back. I am from the States and live in the UK with a British husband so this was something I thought about (although I never did a lot of research).
I honestly wouldn't move. I think the financial incentives aren't likely to pan out as there are just too many costs. Also, you will be isolating yourself with small children and possible marriage issues. It has taken me about 10 years to fully integrate in the UK and make real British friends (and that was coming with a positive attitude and no other life complications).

We moved from London to NYC two years ago with two kids. Our youngest was in reception and we moved the summer before she was due to start yr1.

Your dh's salary would be great in most parts of the US but NYC is ridiculously expensive. We've found it to be more expensive than London. We're not really saving and we're bringing home more as dh also works.

Rents are very high. If you're in a good school district within reasonable commuting distance of NYC in, say, NJ. CT or westchester, you'll pay for it. Check out zillow.com or trulia.com to get an idea. Make sure the school district offers full day kindergarten - some only offer half day which for yr1 equivalent is crazy!

Check out what it means by health insurance is included. It's increasingly unusual for employees to pay nothing, especially for a family. And then you enter the wonderul world of deductibles and copays, in network and out of network. Look at the plan very very closely. We have insurance which is considered top notch but we still get hit by costs and we pay about $800 a month for it (employer pays another $1000!!!!!).

You need to figure in flights home if not part of the package. Presumably you'll want to go at least once a year. It's a big expense!

You don't have family so you need to pay for all babysitting if you ever want to go out. Important to factor it in!

You'll also need to figure in insane car insurance because you'll be considered new drivers by most insurance companies!

We got twice the amount you're being offered as a relocation package plus flights were paid for. And we spent it and then some - we had to give a double deposit, for example, because we had no credit record.

As others have said, if your dh will be considered a us employee, annual leave tends to be paltry. He needs to see if he can get his uk benefits transferred. Also check out the work culture where he will be. If hes working ridiculous hours with a long commute and little leave, then what's the point? That's not fun for anyone.

For us, however, despite all of this, the move has been really good. We moved for my work and my dh expressed concerns because we'd had some rocky patches as well. But the move has actually been really good for us. It got us out of a rut and its been hard but fun discovering a new city together. I've found the schooling to be far better than what we had in the UK - you have to be careful though, I think school quality is more variable. The kids settled in very quickly and love it here now. It would have been much much harder if they'd have been unhappy. My younger dd responded very well to the more easy approach they took in kindergarten which is more play based than yr1 in the UK. I think they push them to read and write too early in the UK so I was happy with that as well.

I'm not saying don't do it, I'm very grateful to my dh that he was willing to take the jump with me but I don't think your dh has thought through fully all the implications, especially financial ones.

Btw, not financial sector by any stretch!!!!!!

You're welcome to PM me if you want more info about my package, where we ended up living and what's involved.

If your son is in reception now, he should be able to start kindergarten in public school next year - especially as the cut off is sept 1 in England which is quite early for the US (each district has its own cut off) - so you shouldn't have the expense of pre-k.

Residency if you're in the us as temporary residents may not be so clear cut. Your permanent residence will still be the UK. We're in the us on non immigrant visas so I don't think I can insist kids stay here. But maybe look at signing an agreement with your dh before you leave about what would happen if you split up? You probably should consult with someone who understands US family law.

He dismissed a lot of the feedback on figures by saying ‘That’s probably from people in the financial business saying $150,000 isn’t enough, and people saying £5k moving package isn’t enough are probably in the same line of work’

I am an engineer - and also regardless of your industry the relocation costs are the same, he does not want to listen.

I would ask him to create a budget for the first 12 months in the USA

Flights to NYC

Your mum visiting twice in the first year (you pay)

one flight for you all back to UK - hotel also if required - to visit

hotel in NYC area for the first month or so.

months deposit and rent for a property in USA

Car hire

Car pruchase

how does 5kUK£ cover that.

do you rent or own in the UK

Re schools imo it's very easy to feel held to ransom when you're in a great school in the UK. You feel as if that's the only great school. We have moved back to a different area (through choice, and I'm guessing you wouldn't want to due to your support/mum etc.) but there are other good schools. We are in the SE and we got in year places for my 2 DCs at a very good school, although I did have to write to lots.

If that was the only reason not to go I would disregard it and I know it's not the case for you, but I wanted to mention it anyway.

As Shaksuka said, we really were in a rut and wanted needed to shake things up and even though it didn't go as planned we are, all 4 of us, enriched by the experience and would do it again. (Struggling to be back in the UK!!).

This seems like it's being done for your husband's career only because there's no financial benefit in it. I would only go if we were able to save large pensions or pay off the mortgage. If you're saving on that salary you won't be able enjoy the experience of being there.

Sorry the biggest red flag here is that your dh is refusing to address your very valid concerns. He's acting extremely naively.
I would let him go, try going over to visit when you can and agree to re-assess 6/12 months down the line.

My parents were is a similar position 30plus years ago. My mother refused to move away from her mother. Quite possibly for similar reasons although we never discussed it.

They struggled on, patched it up, eventually moved (which was pretty essential for my Dad's career and he is even now resentful that Ma sabotaged his earlier and better prospective move) and went on to have more kids. All good? Umm not really as they had the most dysfunctional unhealthy marriage ever until my mother died and my Gran was/is far too involved. Quite frankly I think she should have told my Mother years ago it was her marriage - a marriage between 2 people, not three and left them to get on (or not get on with it). It has truly damaged all of us children and my Dad who now bitterly regrets trying to do the "right thing" by his wife.

TBH I'm sure ending the marriage when we were small would have been less damaging than allowing us to grow up in such a dysfunctional household.

Maybe your very reluctance to leave because you marriage isn't that great and your Mum provides so much support is a pointer that actually this isn't fixable or maybe it is? You need to decide. Whatever the outcome this decision is gOing to have huge implications for years to come.

BrunoBrookes is spot on with this He's not there for you now. How do you think he's going to be when it's a toss up between coming straight back in the evenings because you're alone and have had the kids all day, and going for drinks in a cool NY bar to 'get to know the team'?

This will happen a lot - I guarantee it. This is going to be a big adventure for him and he's going to jump in with both feet - I can tell how excited his is already from what you've written. New York work culture is far more demanding and less considerate of family life than even London work culture is. My DH had to go on a business trip to Canada five days after I gave birth to our first DC and stay two nights!!! No consideration was given to me or our new baby - it was business and that came first.

If you do end up going because he browbeats you into it, please think long and hard about burying yourself out in the suburbs of NJ. It will make your long days alone much harder to bear and you will meet many more mums and expat Brits if you live in the city. I know you want a four-bed house, but as someone who's been there, done that, I would seriously, seriously consider getting an apartment in the city with three bedrooms. You can put the kids in together when your DM comes over, but for the bulk of the time it will be you and your DC and I really wouldn't sacrifice your normal life for that extra bedroom for guests.

We were in Silicon Valley, California, and I was amazed at how many of my colleagues were church goers compared to back in Ireland... There were a wide variety of religions, but people took it much more seriously than I was used to. So not just a'South thing.

We are back in Ireland again, after a fantastic 10 years.
But we were both working and didn't have children for our first 7 years there. We had a large European expat community at work, which have us a great starting point for socializing. Some of the wives who didn't/couldn't work felt isolated. Others busied themselves with children's activities. But it was definitely harder for the non working spouse than the working spouse.

Regards relocation, our package was one way. We had flights, a months accommodation and rental car, and transfer of our belongings. We transferred back to Ireland so got same deal coming back. A transfer back was not guaranteed, in fact we were really lucky to get one.

The most stressful part was the first two months or so. Finding a property to rent, buying enough furniture to make apartment liveable. Getting SSN nos, setting up bank accounts, utilities, cable TV, phones, etc. All while navigating an unknown area and an unknown system. However, we got great support from expat community in helping us navigate the early days and all the above setup. We just went with the flow and didn't stress too much about it. But if you don't have a ready made support network and are expected to do this on your own with two small children in tow, it could be very stressful. (This was mostly done by the SAH partners, in my experience. Banks and SSN will need both of you present).

BTW, we went on only OK salaries for Silicon Valley. But we got loads of opportunities, so money increased over time. We didn't have a plan to make money out of the experience. But we did. And we had a few nice splurges too.

Only go if you decide to make it a great adventure and really embrace it. It will be what you make of it. We planned to stay 3 to 5 years and stayed 10 because we had such a great time.
Some of the wives who went just to further their husbands careers were miserable, missed their families back home and were homesick.

MumOfTwoGirls, do you mind me asking why you left Silicon Valley?

I wouldn't go.

The biggest concern is that your marriage is already very shaky. He is dismissing all of your concerns about the outcomes for the whole family and the financial aspects of the deal because he is only concerned with making everyone fit with what he wants. You also need to look very closely into the rules governing whether you could bring the children back to the UK if you separate.

I

We moved North - South quite a few years and the relocation package was in excess of £10 k. It covered getting out of our mortgage package early, movers, surveys, hotels whilst house hunting, estate agents fees, kennels for the dog and lots of other stuff. When DH did his tax return the IR still hit us with a bill for £2k in tax.

5k is beer money. IMO

Sorry. I would suggest posting on urban baby.com and ask what sort of salary is comfortable for NYC living. It isn't 150k for a family, certainly not if you want four bedrooms and want to save. Think 500k and up if you have those goals in mind.

Check out US News for a listing of top schools by state, and from there you can investigate commuting times.

I moved to Connecticut from Manhattan six months ago, and have found it fairly easy to make friends because I have a new baby, and mums' groups are easy to come by. There are some lovely towns in Fairfield County CT, many of which are beach towns. The commute it longer, but I much prefer the area to NJ.

That’s probably from people in the financial business saying $150,000 isn’t enough, and people saying £5k moving package isn’t enough are probably in the same line of work’.

No!!

I'm an academic, and all my relocation allowances have been near to twice what your DH is being offered. And my last move (within the UK) the salary offer wasn't far off what your husband is being offered. It was still a helluva move it took ages. And cost a lot more than my relocation allowance for example, my DS (teen at the time) managed with the school change only because I did some signing of large cheques for an independent school.

Your husband sounds naive and inexperienced -- he sounds quite junior & wowed at the "six figure salary" when really, in US terms, it's not actually a lot for a professional.

pupicola we left Silicon Valley because we never intended to stay permanently, and I got a rare chance to transfer back. If not chance to transfer, we might have stayed for several more years, because we had great life there.

In my case, I think it was meant to be, as my mom got sick shortly after we got home, and has passed away since.
I love being back in Ireland too.

OP, should add, we managed in a two bed house, with 2 DDs under 3. We had large master bedroom, and DDs moved in with us when we had visitors.

We had visitors 3-4 weeks each summer. Sofa beds were put to regular use, as was air mattress. We also had spare double bed in DDs room.

Do you think this is his way of leaving you, by being sneaky and making it look like you who has split you up?

Has he said anything about missing you (not DSs) if he went alone?