To refuse to move to USA with hubby

[CookieTramp]

I don't know what I'm really after here, but please offer your perspective.

We moved to where we are 2 years ago and I love it. Ds1 hs in reception class at school and it's a great school. I have a 4mo baby.

Husband's company wants him in NY and has upped offer to $150,000, and DH says we will be able to save £1000+ a month on that, whereas here we are not able to save. I don't work at the moment, except a little freelance from home.

The main reasons I can't agree are: 1. My mum. She is more my mainstay than DH, really. She has a fantastic bond with DS1 and will have with DS2. We need her and also it will break her heart. We have very little family and my dad died 7 years ago. 2. We will lose the school place and with the squeeze on places could easily get one out of area. 3. I do not know if we really will save what DH says and no clue how to work it out definitively. Relocation package is €5,000, which to me seems like it won't touch the sides what with flights to and fro and furnishing a 4-bed house out there from scratch.

Main issue I suppose is our relationship is not great and DH has never grasped the concept of emotional support. He takes his responsibilities seriously and gives lots of his time to the kids but I don't feel he is really there for me. I'm too scared to leave all my other supports and put myself in a position where he is all I have. We were in Relate last year and DS2 was conceived in fit of optimism thereafter.

So DH is desperate to go, as the job there is beyond his wildest dreams. I would hate to hold him back from that. One possibility is he goes for a year on his own (he needs at least the first two big projects) but how could I do that to DS1, even if I could do it to DH?!

It seems impossible whichever way I turn and we need to decide soon. Hubby keeps saying about financial gain (but is it really?!) and I will make new friends but the biggest loss is my mum and the school place. dH says would be for a couple of years.

Over to you. I am soooo stressed and distressed.

[SelfconfessedSpoonyFucker]

I do think it can be very risky for marriages to be apart like that.

[SelfconfessedSpoonyFucker]

It is a reasonable salary if you live outside of the city, don't live in the fanciest neighbourhoods (not saying the nasty ones, just not the country club ones) and don't drive fancy cars. However, moving costs a fortune. Imagine how much it would cost to replace every single electrical item you own, everything from a fridge and washer to a hair dryer and TV. When we first moved our rental didn't have a washer or fridge, we had to buy a hoover, lights for the bedrooms etc. It was crazy expensive, you never realise how many appliances you have until you do this -- then buying two cars, ugh. A chunk more money would help, you could get help with the house, travel, have money for more social stuff and you could afford to go back to Britain to visit more often. Do you need a big house? Remember houses here are quite a bit bigger and a two bedroom here is often nothing like a two bedroom in the UK. Could the kids share? Would a two or three bedroom work? I doubt very much you will save $1K/month but I don't think you will be hard up.

I was lonely for about six months and still not fully settled (not unhappy, just not quite all there) for the first two years (how long we were meant to be here). We put my son in a coop preschool (where the parents volunteer their time to help run it) and I made friends through there. Americans can be much more friendly than Brits. They were friends I had no history with though and it took a while to trust people with my son so we had no babysitter for evenings out. I avoided making friends with Brits as we were only meant to be there two years. I have a couple of Brit friends now after 15 years. It did pull dh and me together though as we spent so much more time together as we initially had no friends.

Your mother could come for up to three months at a time if she was willing and perhaps you could go back for a visit with the kids in between? Our schools tend to be less strict about time off compared to the schools in Britain. Would she be willing to come with you for the first three months and help you get settled?

All this said though, it really feels like you don't want to go. I really wanted to go to Montreal for a year about six years ago. DH and I talked a lot about it and he had some serious reservations, so we didn't go. I still wonder and wish we had done it, but it isn't a big deal. I got over the disappointment.

I love living here, even after 15 years I still feel so fortunate. It has to be one of the best decisions we ever made. However, we both chose it. Also I was not on a visa so I didn't have to worry about custody and suchlike. I think it was wonderful for my son who was almost three at the time.

We supposedly have good insurance, a BCBS PPO for those that that makes sense to. Our out of pocket last year came to about four thousand not including our share of the premiums, office visits and medication. No-one was in hospital. To give you an idea, I got two inhalers for 10 quid in England, here I pay $75 a piece. Cheese costs a fortune.

[lbsjob87]

A friend of mine had your situation but in reverse.
Moved to Hong Kong before she had kids, OH has some amazing job in a law firm.
She came back to stay with her mum when she had both boys (2.5 years apart, so came home twice, each time for a few weeks) because she wanted them born British.
When the whole family came home for Christmas 2012, none of them wanted to go back. The boys missed their cousins, the oldest was starting school and she didn't want him in an international school (I think at the bottom of it, she was homesick and just wanted good old Blighty).
Eventually, she stayed with the boys, got her son into her old primary school, her OH is still out there.
They miss each other like crazy but he comes home or they go out there 6 times a year.
He has promised to only do it for 5 years, then get a lower paid job here.
It wouldn't be my choice but it works for them.
If your support network means more to you than the NY option, I would excuse to go, but support OH in his choices. Give it a year, see how it's working for you all.
Neither option is easy and I feel for you.

[Wobblestones]

I found this thread while searching for info on US relocation costs as we're about to make a similar move.
OP what did you decide? Did you go? How are you?

[TheZeeTeam]

As a complete aside from the entire thread, but just because DH got his bill from the train company today, DH spends just over $250 a month on the commute. That includes the car parking at the station. We live 26 miles away from Manhattan.

Just thought that would help if you are still doing the sums!!

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Your H wants to do this and doesn't want to hear/know about any dampners to the plan.

^^ this times 100

[NoBusinessLikeSnowBusiness]

You said he doesn't get on with your mother. Is there any chance he is using this, even subconsciously, as a way to get you away from her? Have they always not hit it off or is it more since the kids came along and she has seen he's not giving you the support you need? I'm not suggesting this is his prime motivation, just maybe a piece of it. Apologies if I'm way off the mark.

I also wondered before this came up what your plans for returning to work had been. Have you been a SAHM since your Ds or did you return and are now on mat leave again. I know your said you were freelancing a bit - were you freelance before too? If you have that visa that enables you to work would it be realistic in the States, assuming child are could be sorted when you were ready. Also think a pp has a good point about what would happen if your dh wants to stay indefinitely after two years or is that not an option with his company.

Good luck whatever you decide OP.

[Animation]

Yes mathanxiety talks sense.

I think you need a bit of romancing OP before you make a decision.

[juneau]

I agree with mathanxiety. He's so starry-eyed about going to work in NY that he's not willing to fight for the right package or rock the boat too much with work to demand it. And with you offering him the chance to go over on his own, why would he? He can head off alone and leave all this bother - and by that I mean your reservations about going and leaving your mother - who he doesn't particularly get along with + your long-standing marital problems - on the other side of the Atlantic. When you've already endured quite a chunk of time struggling with your marital woes, that's probably pretty attractive, don't you think?

He probably knows that once he's been there six months too, that your bargaining position will be much reduced, because he will already have started the job.

[BlingBubbles]

I have been following this thread from the beginning and althought I cant add anything about moving to the States I can say that DH and relocated last year from London to Europe because of DH's job. It was a fantastic opportunity for him, lots more money and way better career opportunities. It was a very difficult decision to make as we were leaving a life behind that we had both known for over 10 years(both our immediate families live in another parts of England and another country) and a job that I loved! We made the decision to go as a family. It cost us way more than 5k to move and we only moved to Europe. DH and I have a rock solid marriage but over this last year we have fought and argued more than ever before, I think if we were having difficulties before the move i would have just walked out and gone back to London. OP you both need to want this move or it won't work.

We have settled in well here and it's a much better way of life for us all and especially for my DD who is 2.8months.

Good luck OP I hope you can make the right decision.

[rookiemater]

Mathanxiety offers very sage advice.

Your H wants to do this and doesn't want to hear/know about any dampners to the plan.

Yes it's more money, but although you've had lots of good advice it sounds a bit akin to DH announcing to me that he's been offered a pay increase of say £40k and we are all to move to London. I don't see how he can say with such certainty that you would save £1k per month or whatever without seeming to have the slightest knowledge or desire to learn about living costs/commuting/taxes etc. I would suspect that in reality you would save very little, which, if it was your main reason for moving over with him, would make you resent him even more.

A parent from DS's class has gone to work in Canada for around a year. Unusual in that it is the DM in this case. What they have done is she has gone on her own, but her DH & DS are following her for holidays. Then next term he is taking a sabbatical from his work and will be there from summer hols until Jan. It must be hard for them - I'm sure she misses her DS and DH as they seem to have a strong relationship, but what they have done means that whilst they will miss each other, it gives her the opportunity to try it out whilst maintaining most of what they have in the UK.

I wouldn't move if I were you, for all the reasons outlined in your OP, but I would offer to come over for chunks of time. If it's a two year post - I'm a little unclear if its permanent or not - then it seems daft to sacrifice good schools, nice area, strong relationship for the DCs with DGran just so one person can do the job he wants to do.

[drivenfromdistraction]

If your relationship is rocky, then you also need to consider what happens if you break up while you are out in the US. You may end up in a situation where your DH can block you from bringing the kids back to the UK, but you are not allowed to stay in the US yourself. Scary stuff.

[Frogisatwat]

This has been an eyeopener! I hope things work out.

[SofiaAmes]

My utilities (gas+elec+water+phone+internet+sat tv+garbage) can run $500-$600/mo and I live in Los Angeles with no ac and rarely any heating. I don't know specifically about nj, but some states have very high electricity costs and in some states many houses are heated with electricity or propane (instead of natural gas) and this can get expensive. It's possible that none of this will apply at these levels to the op, but it would be prudent to remember that there may be lots of unfamiliar costs that she might not have allowed for in her budget.
I just looked up the nyc tax that I remember from when I lived there and it was repealed in 1999, but there still will be a lot of complicated tax returns to deal with the ny/nj tax issues as was pointed out before.

[mathanxiety]

Don't move under the circumstances. You and DH would need a good, solid relationship in order to emerge unscathed from living abroad. You would need him to be your rock.

I don't think this is all about the opportunity for the H's work life to expand. I think he may have something of a 'seven year itch' that affects every aspect of his life, not just work. It may be that the NY offer allows him to present it as a work opportunity but deep down he wants to transform himself in some way. He felt different when he visited due to the freer and easier American style of interaction. I think he is having a sort of personal mini crisis here and I think a move would only paper over the cracks.

From what you say, what he wants is a new life, a new relationship, a new start. He wants it with the same old him and the same old you, but brand new scenery, and this is therefore completely unrealistic. He has stars in his eyes. He will not listen respectfully to your objections or try to see your pov -- and you are both at home on native soil and there is much at stake, both the move and his relationship. You have already been to Relate so he knows there are issues and also what those issues are. If he wants a better relationship and a happier life, he needs to do it in the here and now. Why can't he 'bloom where he is planted'? I don't think it's naivete or British lack of assertiveness that is keeping him from ironing out the details or playing hardball with the 24 year old 'HR department'. I think he believes in the magic of it all.
...your husband has to stop wanting it so much that it'll cost you all as a family [UpTheChimney] This is very, very wise advice. Cost means money but also the potential cost to the relationship.

With a good relationship and solid, loving, respectful communication going both ways, all the practical obstacles could be overcome and you would stick together, give or take, through thick and thin, draw strength from each other, grow together, end up stronger and happy. With the relationship as things stand, I would dig in my heels and fold my arms and shake my head.

You have no guarantee that if he likes it there and the company offers an extension after the couple of years currently envisioned he wouldn't want to stay. What then?

[stopgap]

This is likely an unpopular suggestion, but you could always try Staten Island for living over New Jersey. The ferry to Manhattan from SI is reliable and FREE, and it's a quick ride on the 4/5 express train to 14th Street, from where your husband could either walk back down to Spring Street or hop on the 6. And it would be a fantastic opportunity to do some sightseeing with the kids.

www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/191-Rensselaer-Ave_Staten-Island_NY_10312_M47896-01054?row=5&source=web

Staten Island Tech High School is excellent and definitely top 100 in the US, but I don't know much about the elementary schools.

[wobblyweebles]

But I think you are right about NY state taxes, which you claim as a credit on your NJ tax return.

OP - when you are working out how much you will pay in taxes, bear in mind it is complicated :-)

[wobblyweebles]

You should not have NYC tax withheld nor should you have to file a NY tax return.

I helped my SIL with this recently as she lives in Greenwich but worked in NYC.

[tinyshinyanddon]

I think you do pay NY tax because the money is earned there. However you will be given a credit for this on your NJ return. So you file 2 returns: NJ and NY.

[wobblyweebles]

If you live in NJ you don't pay NY city tax even if you work in NY.

[wobblyweebles]

$1000 a month in utilities? Even I don't spend that much in winter and I have a big house in a very cold state with a very inefficient boiler.

[tinyshinyanddon]

Yep check check and check again that health insurance plan. I have no doubt it's a good plan but as you know there are co-pays, co-insurance and prescription charges that add up. Some drugs are $10, some are $50 depending on your plan. With our plan an ear infection for one of the kids can set us back $100-200 (Dr visit, lab charges, prescription, recheck at Drs office). For a family of 4 I reckon you should add in $100/month for medical expenses (and if you don't spend it, then add it to DHs projected $1000/month savings ).

[SofiaAmes]

You should check how much the commuting costs will be (the trains from nj to nyc are not cheap) and I'm pretty sure he will be paying New York City taxes (which are crazy high) and maybe even NY STate taxes on his income even though you live in NJ, because his office/work is in NYC. Also, please make sure to add the cost of utilities (gas, electric and water and garbage) to the cost of rent. These items can add $1000 a month to some places in the winter. You will also need to add to the cost of your dm's airfare, the cost of travel insurance to cover health insurance...this can get expensive depending on her age. You really need to find out exactly what the health insurance covers (ie you and the kids for no extra cost?) and what the deductibles are. This can be a major expense in the USA. You will also need to figure out how the local schools work in the area that you will be living in...ie if there is an automatic place for your children. This varies quite a bit from district to district in the USA. And the cost of rent can vary enormously depending on the school district.

[wobblyweebles]

$150k is a very comfortable salary in NJ.

Really look carefully into school districts. It's worth paying more property tax because the schools can be excellent. I am in New England and could not be more delighted with our local schools.

It's not like the UK with 30 children per class, more like 12-18 at the younger end and up to 25 at the older end.

I had no problems making friends as a SAHM.

Do try to make sure your husband keeps his UK vacation allowance. Having said that, I get 28 days per year and dh gets 25, both working for us companies.

Our relocation allowance was $15k, of which $6k went on shipping, $4k on flights. You'll need large deposit for a rental house. New cars are much cheaper than in the UK.

It sounds like you have good health insurance so you are likely to find the healthcare is much better than the UK.

I love living here and have no plans to ever move back.

[expatinscotland]

Crimea has a point with regards to money.

It's different if you are native or married to a native. It is. I am married to a native here, and am an immigrant now rather than an expat (have dual nationality now).

If I were offered this kind of salary in the Tri-State area and I were living 'at home' as it were, I would probably take it for a good job with good promotion prospects (would definitely require a much larger relocation package, however, even from another state, and written time off for stuff like changing over my state driving license and plates, school things, getting a family practice doctor, waiting in for stuff that needed doing to the house, etc). But it wouldn't be such a huge move in the grand scheme of things for other Americans. Same shit, different state. No visas required.

I have two first cousins in that area with kids already, people move states often enough for work or they are in the military. The biggest hurdles you find are tax ones - property, income, sales.

But it would not be as a money saver unless you're coming from Taxachussetts or some other place like that.