To refuse to move to USA with hubby

[CookieTramp]

I don't know what I'm really after here, but please offer your perspective.

We moved to where we are 2 years ago and I love it. Ds1 hs in reception class at school and it's a great school. I have a 4mo baby.

Husband's company wants him in NY and has upped offer to $150,000, and DH says we will be able to save £1000+ a month on that, whereas here we are not able to save. I don't work at the moment, except a little freelance from home.

The main reasons I can't agree are: 1. My mum. She is more my mainstay than DH, really. She has a fantastic bond with DS1 and will have with DS2. We need her and also it will break her heart. We have very little family and my dad died 7 years ago. 2. We will lose the school place and with the squeeze on places could easily get one out of area. 3. I do not know if we really will save what DH says and no clue how to work it out definitively. Relocation package is €5,000, which to me seems like it won't touch the sides what with flights to and fro and furnishing a 4-bed house out there from scratch.

Main issue I suppose is our relationship is not great and DH has never grasped the concept of emotional support. He takes his responsibilities seriously and gives lots of his time to the kids but I don't feel he is really there for me. I'm too scared to leave all my other supports and put myself in a position where he is all I have. We were in Relate last year and DS2 was conceived in fit of optimism thereafter.

So DH is desperate to go, as the job there is beyond his wildest dreams. I would hate to hold him back from that. One possibility is he goes for a year on his own (he needs at least the first two big projects) but how could I do that to DS1, even if I could do it to DH?!

It seems impossible whichever way I turn and we need to decide soon. Hubby keeps saying about financial gain (but is it really?!) and I will make new friends but the biggest loss is my mum and the school place. dH says would be for a couple of years.

Over to you. I am soooo stressed and distressed.

[HerRoyalNotness]

//www.greatschools.org look here for school information.

We were given US18k to move from CANADA! to USA and that only paid for our shipping of household goods in the end. We had to pay out of pocket for flights, 2.5mths in serviced apartment (3k per mth), deposits for utilities, phones etc... If you are with a fledgling company, you will be dumped in the US with zero to little support I imagine.

We work for a large international and that still happened to us.

Your DH can negotiate on holidays. In white collar professions it seems to be 2 weeks vacation, 1 week PTO (can use by the hour, for doct appts, picking up sick DC etc...) and 1 week sick. I asked for an additional weeks vacation and got that easily. We have 8 public holidays in the state we are in.

Childcare and private preschool runs at about $200-250/week. After school care $400/mth. We have our DS1 in private preschool and just found out if he does Kindergarten there, the public school may not recognise it and he'd have to do it again at public school. Some elementarys have half day Kinder programs but most are going to full days.

We are on L1/L2 visa, and it took 4mths to get my EAD.

If you are going to keep your house in the UK, factor in any costs of insurance, rental shortfalls (if renting), maintenance costs, boiler checks etc... and deduct that from your DH salary. Also you will need expat life insurance which costs us about 180/mth. Also bear in mind, you are supposed to declare world wide income on tax returns in USA and any property/shares owned.

Our bills look like this per mth (in Texas, so cheaper than NY I imagine)

Food 1000 at least
Gas 60-100
Water 60-100
Electricity 120
2x iphones 150 (2gb data limit, unlimited calls/texts)
Fuel x2 cars 400 (we live 12miles and 30miles from respective offices)
Internet 60 (basic cable only, and quite high data limit)
Pest Control 60 per quarter
Toll Roads 100
Car Insurance is 1200 per 6mths for 2 cars, 1 new, 1 5yo
Personal Umbrella Insurance 150 per year (recommend this)

Depending on if you are going to rent or buy
Buying
possible Home Association costs, ours is only 1k per year
Home Warranty 650/yr (for AC, major appliance breakdown, boiler system)
House Insurance was something like 3.5k per year, yes really

[pupsiecola]

Thanks MumOfTwo and sorry to hear about your mum.

[ErrolTheDragon]

It sounds like your DH's main argument in favour of going (other than that he wants the job) is financial gain - it's not at all clear that it will be that lucrative for your family.

My DH was seconded to the US by his (large, international) company in about 1990 - they provided masses of support (they hired a relocation consultant for us), covered all moving costs, and IIRC the cost of accommodation there. We had no kids and amazingly enough my company was able to employ me there too. Between us we were making over £100K ... not financial services! So that was a lucrative couple of years - but not so much that it really figured in deciding whether to go.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

OP I do think living abroad can be a fantastic experience, especially for small kids. We lived in NYC on that sort of salary 6 years ago and it was great! We were pretty much rolling in it. But we didn't have kids. Having said that, plenty of people live and work in NY, with families, on salaries much lower. You certainly could spend all that money! But you really don't have to. The relocation package is paltry though. It cost us that much just to ship our stuff over (6 years ago). To your DH's "What do you want me to take from that?" I think you need to say "I want you to convince me, with well researched figures, that we won't be out of pocket and my lifestyle won't suffer". Don't forget, moving back again needs to be factored into the costs. And really push it on to him that he needs to convince you.

BTW you should definitely check out the custody issue, but I'm pretty sure it's not as dire as has been suggested. While the children would be resident in the US, none of you would have a permanent right to remain. US courts are supposed to make decisions in the best interests of the child too. Get some proper legal advice - also on what your rights would be and what the company would cover for yourself should you split up.

[helenthemadex]

I would say no, it will put a huge pressure on your already strained relationship, you will be homesick and miserable.

To make a decision like this you really need to have a rock solid relationship and good financial back up package

Loads of luck whatever you decide to do

[lolaisafuckertoo]

We are in texas. Private school costs are covered, still employed by UK so same holiday entitlement. Rent is paid for, but costs are lower here. 5k relocation costs. Care hire paid for. Health insurance covered with Cigna INternational but we still pay for some medication (Yanks love a doctor and a pill), so even ifyou have healthinsurnace you ma well be paying out for any emergency care or certain specialities. Dental not so sure about. I have a 21 year old who has had 1 flight out to see us paid for as she was a student. she left on Tuesday. very very hard.

We had Xmas apart and it was horrid. horrid horrid. no words to describe it.
Yeah its an experience, so is a dose of the shits

We have lost dd2's place in a good school, we have our house but not let out so that is always there for eldest dd and for me.

I don't know how much we are saving as we have some health costs to cover (mental health on my side) are hefty.

I have a visa to work but nothing has caught my attention yet. Been here since July. air conitionioning essential. There are expats here who hae lived all over, get sent places at a dro of a hat. some are arseholes some are interesting and helpful. bit like life really.

your kids are small, that is the biggest deal.
you would be surprised how quickly they settle into school, make friends, enjoy things in general.

My family are a bag of judgemental twats who are even angrier with me for leaving UK. you would be surprised who gets their nose out of joint.

see it as an adventure, but be careful not to get talked into things. wisewink

[TheZeeTeam]

I live here and $150k, although not massive, is not exactly paltry. Especially for a family of about to be 4 living in the Jersey burbs. It will limit which school district you can live in though. Here, you live in a school district and you go to that school. This means there is none of the British fighting for school places....if you have the money.

If you rent, your property taxes are included in the cost of the rent. That's kind of like council tax, just a lot more money. If you buy, you pay them as well as your mortgage. As an example, we pay nearly $30K pa in property taxes. We have 4 children though and are in a really well regarded school district. The alternative would be private school. When you look at it that way, it doesn't sound so horrendous (much!!!).

You would obviously have to pay to have the baby. I know it's expensive but I had all my children in the UK, so don't know how much. Pre-school can be eye wateringly expensive...think several thousand for 5 half days. The cost of general children's activities is an entire industry here, so if it's not a town run programme, expect it to cost a lot. If you have an L2 visa already, you can work if you want to. You have a bit more paperwork first though.

Re not having your mum's support. That is huge. In this case, I wouldn't recommend going to a town that doesn't have a community of ex-pats. Unfortunately, the communities with lots of expats tend to be the most expensive!

I, personally, don't regret coming out here for a second as it's been a wealth of opportunity for my children, in particular. They have experienced things here that we could never have dreamed of back in the UK. That said, DH and I are a strong team and were both up for it in the first place. And, it does affect your relationships back at home. My kids still miss their grandparents quite a few years down the line. In your situation, I'm not sure I would.

Sorry for the essay!!

[TheZeeTeam]

Oh and our relocation cost $26k. That included shipping the contents of our 4 bed UK home to here.

[SquinkiesRule]

We just relocated back from US and spent more than £5000 on shipping what seems like very little, flights for three of us and other transport, plus hotel near the airport. You'll need way more than that. NJ is expensive not quite as bad as NY. $150,000 would be OK but not life changing money and not enough for huge savings.
Once you are residents you cannot up sticks and take the kids back to UK even for a holiday if he says no, even if you are on a visa and not a green card.

[Caterina99]

We relocated to the US last April, just the 2 of us, no kids, no pets, we don't own a house in uk and our relocation cost over 12k, which DHs company paid.

I'm sure 150k is a great salary for many, but for a family of 4 in NYC it won't go far. You can definitely live comfortably but you certainly won't be saving huge amounts of money.

[GreatAuntDinah]

I certainly wouldn't encourage him to go on his own. That's the high road to affairsville.

[CookieTramp]

weatherall, no, I don't think it's his way of leaving me. That really wouldn't be what he wants - he is prepared to go without me (for six months, with a review of sitch at the end of that) but has made it clear that's not an option long-term.

He does want me to be happy, and he's not as bad as it's all coming off here! He's a good man and takes his responsibilities very seriously - but emotional connection and empathy are not his strong suit, and even when he's really trying he doesn't always really get it. I think his wish to go does blind him to my plight - he says he sympathises but then comes out with clangers like 'you will meet new friends' and 'we're bound to save money on that salary' which don't even begin to address what the problem is or make me feel like he's checking out the issue seriously for me. He wants to believe it's all possible and part of that is wanting to believe I can be happy there, which means he sticks his head in the sand about the reality of the situation I will be in.

I guess we have more to discuss tonight - but I am armed with so much more information now. Most people think $150k isn't enough to save loads of money, and we have to listen to that. I had my doubts and they have all been confirmed here. I was so scared of believing it all, going over there, putting myself through it all, and then the financial 'gains' not materialising. I know how angry and cheated I would feel then!

Relocation costs are an eye-opener. Can't be ignored and will have to be revisited. I do know that the $5k doesn't include our flights out there, which would be paid by the company separately (no one's mentioned flights back, though! another heads-up for me!), so no one is expecting us to cover that ourselves.

Will report back. Thank you soooooo, much, ladies. Buckets of gratitude to all people who have replied. This is huge for me and I really, really appreciate all the ideas and opinions and information.

[BakerStreetSaxRift]

Having read all the responses, I think the best thing is for your DH to go himself. He is obviously going to be very resentful if he doesn't get to go.

I think he'll realise that he's a lot more out of picket than he expects, but better he learns that himself if he won't believe you and half of mumsnet who have actually done it and at least you won't have moved away from your home, school and support network.

[Rainbunny]

Eggs has good advice. I do feel I should mention that $150,000 for a family of 4 isn't going to go very far in NY (which sounds crazy I know). Finding good living accommodations will be the first expensive hurdle - if your DH's company helps with that it will be very beneficial.
Also, get familiar with the company's benefits package -even when you have company health insurance you may be on a plan where you have co-pays and deductibles, these fees can add up depending on your plan.

[pupsiecola]

I think putting together a spreadsheet with well researched figures would help you have a realistic discussion with him about just how much will be left over to save every month, if any. He can't argue with the actual figures and it might bring some clarity.

[pupsiecola]

BTW, someone has just posted on the Overseas Board about moving to NY with a 4 year old. Might be useful to make contact with them/ready any replies?

[pupsiecola]

*read any replies.

[Itsfab]

I wouldn't go but I would tell DH if he wants too of course you can't stop him.

I wouldn't go because of all the reasons you have said. Your mum - when she is elderly and maybe needing care you would be miles away and if the worst happen could you afford to fly back immediately while DH had the kids?

The school - never under estimate a good school where you child is happy and settled. My son has been to three schools and has really struggled.

Your relationship doesn't sound solid and strong and your DH certainly doesn't sound like he is listening to you.

Best plan imho is to send him if he really wants to go. You stay here, he sees how the job is and you decide if actually being with him is worth the upheaval. Don't go because your child will miss his dad. There is Skype and tbh if your husband isn't going to listen to and acknowledge your worries are you going to last the distance anyway? You could move there, leave your mum and end up stuck there divorced with a husband who doesn't parent and no way of returning home.

Worse case scenario but something that has to be considered when your relationship isn't great.

[Dozer]

What you want is as important as what he wants.

Many people when they have partners and families make career sacrifices, it's just how it is.

Would not be great for the DC for their father to be away for months and to have uncertainty about the future. Or for you to manage alone.

School issues on return would be a major deal for me.

[NadiaWadia]

I sympathize with the OP - she has been put in a very difficult position and doesn't sound like her DP has really thought it through. It would be a massive upheaval for her and the DCs, and a lot to expect from them, really. It would be a simpler decision to make if they didn't have children.

But one thing that occurs to me is how will the OP manage if her DP goes alone? Financially that is? I thought she said she wasn't working, and was only doing a small amount of freelance work? It's very expensive to maintain 2 households, obviously, and I think she said if he goes alone the salary offer would be reduced?

[CookieTramp]

Thanks, NadiaWadia, and good point. Personally I think it still needs to be the full €150,000 even if he goes alone, as we would have two households to run. If we all went, the pkan was to rent our house out, which because we have a relatively small mortgage would leave us a little left over each month after property management charges. So if DCs and I were still living here, and DH had a 2-bed apartment in Brooklyn, would be expensive. Plus flights back and forth for him and us. Plus even if he had a 2-bed, would be a squeeze for us to stay for summer hols, etc.

Sooooo complex. My head is spinning. All this with very little sleep!

[atos35]

You have a real dilemma here but I'm going to be a bit harsh and say I think your dh is being a bit selfish. Yes it's a good career opportunity but you clearly would be devastated at having to move and your children would lose their lovely bond with your Mum. You DON'T have to cave in and go! Your dh should consider caving in and staying here! Marriage is partnership and career isn't everything and tbh it sounds like the financial gain isn't that great anyway. I really hope you work this out but I think it would be totally reasonable to stand your ground and say you want to stay. Then if your dh really wants to go anyway then that's his decision and he will have had to decide what's most important to him.

[CookieTramp]

atos that is harsh but I understand why you say it. I think it myself, but when I read your words I just think how harsh that is for DH, who as much as he will love he opportunities and projects out there, does want to build a secure future for of us. It puts him in such a difficult position to have to choose, but I can't ignore the position it puts me in to go when I have such grave doubts about the premise of financial gains and the stability of the relationship that will necessarily be my mainstay.

[indigo18]

Your children would not lose their bond with your mother. I took new-born twins abroad for years; we made sure to take my mother on holiday with us when we had holidays home but other than that we had to manage with letters and photos and the odd - very unreliable- phone call. Both DC adore their grandmother and had a fantastic bond with her throughout childhood. She is very elderly now and they really cherish her. In return, they are her favourite people, bar none.

[MrMeaner]

Not much to add to everyone else, but I live in NY with my wife and two small kids and can echo most of the other comments.

Personally I find NY ridiculously expensive - in particular with regard to rent and schooling. I earn over $150k p.a. TAX FREE and still find that I am spending more per month than I am earning (I know, not a long term viable solution). Admittedly I have a son who takes up a lot of money on a very expensive travel sport, but we are subsidised on education significantly and we don't have a car.

It's not perfect, but:

www.adp.com/tools-and-resources/calculators-and-tools/payroll-calculators/salary-paycheck-calculator.aspx

gives a calculator that allows you to run an estimate of after tax expenses on salary - it's giving $8,500 a month on $150k.
I think you're looking for nearly half that on rent in NJ at least (we pay $6,500 a month for a cramped 3 bed apartment and we're not quite in Manhattan).
You'd need a car definitely.
If you would be looking for private education then no lower than $25k a year, so that salary doesn't cover it, in which case you need to be in a good location - in NJ that tends to be further out of NYC. He would be commuting at least an hour each way depending on where the office is.
I find a food shop in Costco is at least $300 a trip which lasts less time than you expect etc etc

We really like it here, but it's definitely not cheap. People of course do live on far less than that, but you would have to compromise housing over commuting distance I think. And schooling could become an issue. Here's a quote from a US board, on a similar question (Atlanta $150k vs NYC $225k) bearing in mind this was dated 2010:

'I'm going to step out here and say take the 150k in Atlanta as in a long run it will work best for you. NYC is very fast past that 225k you will be making they will over work you for it, you'll have no time to enjoy the city when you have to constently work and be over worked and take work home or have to work late. Although 225k seem like alot it really isnt for Manhattan and even the other boroughs after you've been taxed. 150k you'll do your work in a less stressful environment and be able to get home and enjoy your time or even travel to these big city as you'll have the time and energy to do it. You'll have the best of whatever house in the city or suburbs and still live well. You can even visit NYC monthly as you'll have the means. Infact you can travel any where you want and enjoy the world on that salary living in ATL. You will be limited out here in NY, really limited to all possibilities. This is a very competitive place to live and you'll be fighting every day for this 225k salary. While you can live in outer borough for less, it is still struggle, like I said you will be working constantly working here is really hard work, you are over worked. You will not enjoy whatever it is you'll be doing because of this and to me to live a full filling life you have to enjoy what you do as you spend most of your time working. You practically get home just to sleep and when weekends comes you'll be too tired from being over worked to do anything. I currently live in outer borough making 175k with my husband and trust me when I say we are not living lavish at all I mean it, we are constantly budgeting.'

Relocation costs - support everyone else - I'd look for somewhere around 3 months salary up front to cover. You'll need at least 1 month's rent as a deposit as well as the first month's rental up front, plus if you use a broker they often ask between 1-3 months of rent as well.

Great place, but expensive! On a better deal I'd say go definitely, but I think you need another $50k per year...