To refuse to move to USA with hubby

[CookieTramp]

I don't know what I'm really after here, but please offer your perspective.

We moved to where we are 2 years ago and I love it. Ds1 hs in reception class at school and it's a great school. I have a 4mo baby.

Husband's company wants him in NY and has upped offer to $150,000, and DH says we will be able to save £1000+ a month on that, whereas here we are not able to save. I don't work at the moment, except a little freelance from home.

The main reasons I can't agree are: 1. My mum. She is more my mainstay than DH, really. She has a fantastic bond with DS1 and will have with DS2. We need her and also it will break her heart. We have very little family and my dad died 7 years ago. 2. We will lose the school place and with the squeeze on places could easily get one out of area. 3. I do not know if we really will save what DH says and no clue how to work it out definitively. Relocation package is €5,000, which to me seems like it won't touch the sides what with flights to and fro and furnishing a 4-bed house out there from scratch.

Main issue I suppose is our relationship is not great and DH has never grasped the concept of emotional support. He takes his responsibilities seriously and gives lots of his time to the kids but I don't feel he is really there for me. I'm too scared to leave all my other supports and put myself in a position where he is all I have. We were in Relate last year and DS2 was conceived in fit of optimism thereafter.

So DH is desperate to go, as the job there is beyond his wildest dreams. I would hate to hold him back from that. One possibility is he goes for a year on his own (he needs at least the first two big projects) but how could I do that to DS1, even if I could do it to DH?!

It seems impossible whichever way I turn and we need to decide soon. Hubby keeps saying about financial gain (but is it really?!) and I will make new friends but the biggest loss is my mum and the school place. dH says would be for a couple of years.

Over to you. I am soooo stressed and distressed.

[juneau]

And, that £1000 your DH thinks you'll save every month? You won't. The US is cheap for some things like food, eating out, petrol, white goods, but rent is high, you'll need two cars if you're out in NJ, you'll end up paying for pre-school/daycare (your DS won't start school until he's 5+ there - its a year later than in the UK), and what about air fares back and forth for you, the DC and your DM? You won't save a thing.

[BerniesBurneze]

Send him away for a year.

[Tweasels]

I saw this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2061244-So-homesick-and-miserable-yet-not-appreciating-my-privileged-lifestyle-Help-me-cheer-up-and-get-a-grip-Please and thought of you OP.

Financial decisions aside, if you know it will make you unhappy I wouldn't go. It is too big a risk IMO especially if your relationship is rocky.

[indigo18]

Thanks, Empress and gwen - I thought there might be a way!

[MinesAPintOfTea]

If your marriage isn't great then don't go. It makes you more vulnerable and gives him more power. I think even when things are good these decisions are finely balanced so if things aren't good then its just a bad idea.

[pupsiecola]

Just another thought. DH commuted between here and the Far East for 6 months after the DCs and I returned to the UK last year. It was tough at times, but given that we had been through the most stressful time in our lives and our relationship it actually had a positive effect in an "absence makes the heart grow fonder" kind of a way. I would go so far as to say that it helped us heal as a family - we really missed each other and it certainly made us appreciate each other and what we have together/as a family.

I just wonder if he could get the finances to add up, could he go by himself for say 6 months with you staying here? He could come back once a month (perhaps doing some work in the UK to justify the cost of flights to the company) and you could go over there every 6 weeks for the school holidays, costs allowing. (Did you enjoy the 9 weeks you spent there?).

You may find that some distance between you helps you both figure out that you really do want to be together (or not).

Just a thought...

[Hissy]

looking at the comments on here and your OP love, I certainly don't think you can agree to the move based on this, can you?

I think he's being wowed by the numbers, but has no idea of what they actually mean in NYC.

My sis returned from NYC a couple of years ago, precisely because she didn't want to have to contend with the US school system etc etc.

[stopgap]

I moved to NYC in 2003 with my American husband, lived in Manhattan until last year, and now Connecticut. $150k is going to be a real struggle for a family in the city, especially as you need so many bedrooms. You will not save money on that salary.

I happen to love it in the US and have made lots of friends, but it's not for everyone.

[writtenguarantee]

My guess is that the cost of living in NYC is approximately the same as in London, if not lower (but you have to factor in education, since you said healthcare is covered). And 150K Euros would pretty far in London (I see a Euro symbol above, is that correct?). that translates into over 200K USD, which I think will go pretty far.

we did a transatlantic move the other way 5 or so years ago (from east coast to england) and that cost about $8000. We had a 1 bed though, so if you have two kids it will cost more than that. I think that may have included flights but I don't remember. That might be the easiest thing to determine in all this. Call two moving companies and get estimates.

Mothers aside (that's important, that's the thing we miss most about being here), is it possible to look at this like a temporary adventure? Frankly, one of the nice things about the modern age (be careful what you wish for!) is that you can really experience living in different places. We are doing that and it is really quite fun. If you go there for 5 or 10 years you may look back on it as a precisely time where you did something out of the box.

[Guiltismymaster]

You are right in thinking that 5000EUR wont touch the sides.

We've been given £5000 allowance for our move to mid-Wales and, including visits up to find houses, fees, deposits, removals company, stamp duty etc etc. we will go over that.

But surely the most important thing is whether that is where you want to be as a family.

If that is the dream then go for it, but don't go through all that just to move again 6 months later. And definitely don't stay somewhere you're not happy.

I think in order for you both to look at it objectively you should sit down with other family members/friends and discuss the plus and negative points openly. That way it's not you vs. him; it's a logical discussion on the options.

Best of luck!

[BrunoBrookesDinedAlone]

Just do not go.

Every single aspect of it spells disaster.

Firstly, a move like this is HARD. Really hard. You've had posters on here saying they bailed out as it was just too much even when they were totally 100% behind a move and WANTED it. You don't want it - more than that, the good things in your life are here (your Mum, your life, your friendships, your settled secure situation for your children... everything). The chances of you going, finding a great life, being happy and glad you went are vanishingly small. It's clear you know that. The only emotion pulling you there is guilt - 'what about the children?' - but that's misplaced - I can't think of a worse situation for them than to be uprooted from home, granny and schools and get to see you miserable (and they will see and feel this) and see even less of Daddy as he's in work in the big city until after they go to bed.

Secondly, the offer sounds crap. Lots of folk who know what they're talking about have come on here and NOBODY has said 'that sounds decent!' - but plenty of folk have said, 'that sounds crap/get it upgraded/hmm surely the package must be more in practice than that'. Not good. Even less good when you've got a DH sitting in his office with his tongue practically hanging out with desperation to go. They will know that. It might be the reason the offer isn't higher. At the very least, he sounds naive and inexperienced - not really the kind of person I'd be pleased to junk my job for and end up dependant on when his priority seems to be not getting the best deal for his family but whoo, I wanna work in NYC! Oops, I'm on the US payroll and I've got no holiday time and eeek, they won't actually pay for us to get back and we can't afford to go for at least three years, you're just going to have to suck it up darling. By the way, I'm having a great time...

Thirdly, your DH. I would think that the single most important factor in a move like this being a good idea - for you, for him, and most of all for the children - is you and he being rock solid. A team. You'll only really have each other at first. Worse than that - you'll get there and while you stay at home with the kids, he gets swept into a new life, new work friends, all the excitement. He's not there for you now. How do you think he's going to be when it's a toss up between coming straight back in the evenings because you're alone and have had the kids all day, and going for drinks in a cool NY bar to 'get to know the team'?

The biggest red flag in your posts is the way your DH is presenting this to you. If he were on your side, if he saw you as his partner, his co-parent, his equal - then while he might well be enthusiastic about going, he'd be mighty concerned about you, how you felt, whether it was a good thing for you (and therefore the children, largely). He's not. In fact, he's actively trying to present a very average deal to you as a huge moneyspinner, when my guess is that he knows full well that won't be the case. As you already know, he does not have your back. He's on his own team, not your family team. If you go, you will be under pressure, and alone. And he will not be there for you, listen to you, or probably let you go back without a fight.

All this is even before you consider the idea of whether you like the idea of living in the US, paying for healthcare, having your kids in the school system there...!

Say no. One big fat no. My guess is that he will go anyway, and you will split - I think that from everything you say, it's quite likely. Just do not make the mistake of going as you fear him bailing if you don't. The alternative is a lot worse.

[FraidyCat]

Has he taken into account property taxes when calculating his savings? I did a Google and the first article with a number in it was a wikipedia article for a small town in New Jersey, it said this:

Real estate taxes vary; an $800,000 four-bedroom, 2-full-bath, 2-partial-bath single-family home built in 1939 had taxes of $16,000 in 2009

[Thetallesttower]

I wouldn't move if my relationship was anything less than completely secure. I've refused to move on this basis myself. For me to function, I also like to be near my parents who help out with childcare, near to my work and have stability in schooling for the children. Luckily my husband also agrees though he does sometimes wish we would all get up and move somewhere exciting and new. He is the first to admit that the help we get from my parents is invaluable, it would have to be a very well paid and tempting offer to even get me considering moving away from them and my first thought would be how I could get them to visit a lot!

If you go over to relationships, you will see quite a few tales of women who have followed their husbands abroad and this has gone wrong. The biggest issue for me apart from being near my parents would be not to move somewhere that if we did split up, there might be issues with custody/leaving the country (so not ME, not US). I think that's realistic given your marriage, there's no point in being starry-eyed about it and saying it will never happen- it's unlikely but you wouldn't want to have to stay if you did split up.

[cingolimama]

OP, I totally agree with other posters about the compensation package being woefully low.

However, I'm going out on a limb and disagree about going to U.S. I know it's risky, but here's a different way of looking at it:

• your relationship isn't great right now, okay. But with the two of you forced to work together to make this transition work, it might bring you closer. No, I'm not a Polyanna - I've known this to actually happen!
  
  
• sorry to say this, OP, but you're married to your husband, not your mother.
  
  
• all these people saying the DH should turn this opportunity down, I do wonder about. These are extremely tough times, jobs are scarce. An increase in salary and career advancement can't just be turned down because it's inconvenient.
  
  
• The U.S. isn't perfect, but it can be a hell of a lot of fun. People are very very friendly. You will soon have a social circle and not feel so isolated.
  
  
• don't make a decision out of fear (fear of the relationship getting worse, fear of isolation, fear of losing a school place blah blah blah). Make a positive choice as a family.
  
  Whatever you decide, best of luck to you.

[BrunoBrookesDinedAlone]

sorry to say this, OP, but you're married to your husband, not your mother.

• exactly - perhaps someone should tell him that, so that he can start supporting her, considering her needs, her existing life and its support network... kind of acting like a husband? Then maybe she wouldn't be finding herself in the position of turning to her mum for practical and emotional support, and might be a bit more enthusiastic about giving up all the good things in her own life to facilitate a perceived improvement in his?

[dreamingbohemian]

Don't go. As an expat myself, I see so many factors in your posts that scream not to go.

You asked whether you should just suck it up for your husband and kids. NO. You are just as important as anyone else in the family. And, better for your kids to have their dad long distance for a year or two, than to all go together and end up splitting up, which is a huge risk.

You do have to consider worst case scenario. If you were to split up in the US, your husband could refuse to let you take the kids back to the UK, but you would have no legal right to stay in the US.

[stopgap]

To put things in perspective, a two-bed rental in the city is going to cost you anywhere from $5k to $11k per month. If you move to NJ or CT, things will definitely be cheaper, but the commutes can be killer. Certain parts of Queens or Brooklyn might be achievable on that salary, but you'd really have to delve deeper into local schools.

You said that your son is already in school, but here kids start K at five, and if your boy has a late fall birthday, likely he will be the only one in his year that age, as most families "red shirt" and hold "late" boys back a further year, meaning he'd be really behind if you did move back to England.

Personally I wouldn't do it. I moved to America with a strong relationship, no kids, and I was incredibly homesick and sad for two years.

[BrunoBrookesDinedAlone]

And I don't see much fear in OP, really. I do see a perfectly reasonable conclusion - she's happy, settled and the good things in her life are where she is now. Does she want to leave them all to accompany a person who basically appears to have her well down on his list of priorities to another country so that she can stay at home with the kids? Er, no thanks.

To call that fear is pretty patronising really - as if the default is that a big change must be A Good Thing.

I've moved countless times - for jobs, courses, life changes. Saying something doesn't work for x and y reasons so right now I'm staying put is just as valid as going for it.

[BrunoBrookesDinedAlone]

If you were to split up in the US, your husband could refuse to let you take the kids back to the UK, but you would have no legal right to stay in the US

• jeeps, REALLY, dreamingbohemian? Even if he's also there on a work visa or whatever? I thought that only applied if he were a US citizen and the kids therefore under their jurisdiction - ? No idea, I just assumed that.
  

Bloody hell OP, please look into that and if there is even a SNIFF of it being the case that to return to the UK with the children you'd need his permission, do not entertain going for a moment.

[BlameItOnTheBogey]

I am a 'professional' expat (that's to say that we move around the world living in different places every few years). There is no way I would go under the circumstances you describe. The sums simply don't add up and the relocation package is laughably small. It will barely cover flights, transport etc, let alone shipping your stuff, port clearances, furnishing a house, hotel accommodation whilst you search for a place to stay etc.

My company employ a proper service to help with all of this and meet the full costs - 5,000 wouldn't even touch the sides.

The question though is how you make this decision and do so in a way that means that your husband doesn't resent you forever. I think you need to sit down with him and work some of the figures through. He needs to conclude himself that this will end up costing you money not saving it as he is asserting...

[BomChickaMeowMeow]

I would move us anywhere with DH but that would be on the basis of having a strong relationship and not being out-of-pocket at least. If you haven't got those two elements stay where you are.

[BrunoBrookesDinedAlone]

Once the children are established here, eg have been here a few months, they are considered resident in the US and the father could prevent the mother bringing them back to the UK - but of course if they are separated her visa will no longer be valid (if she's on a Green Card then she would be able to stay, I think) and she would have to leave.

There is your answer, OP.

If you go knowing that, and knowing the relationship you have with your husband and how likely he is to consider your feelings above his if things go wrong, then you are insane!

[glasgowstevenagain]

I moved from Glasgow to Yorkshire last year....

I received a hotel for a month,

Train fares from Yorkshire to Glasgow every weekend for a month

£30 per night (which I used to put towards rent) for 6 months in Yorkshire - so 5k +

and 3k towards the survey and estate agent and legal costs of selling my Glasgow house.

so 10k worth - and single without kids