To refuse to move to USA with hubby

[CookieTramp]

I don't know what I'm really after here, but please offer your perspective.

We moved to where we are 2 years ago and I love it. Ds1 hs in reception class at school and it's a great school. I have a 4mo baby.

Husband's company wants him in NY and has upped offer to $150,000, and DH says we will be able to save £1000+ a month on that, whereas here we are not able to save. I don't work at the moment, except a little freelance from home.

The main reasons I can't agree are: 1. My mum. She is more my mainstay than DH, really. She has a fantastic bond with DS1 and will have with DS2. We need her and also it will break her heart. We have very little family and my dad died 7 years ago. 2. We will lose the school place and with the squeeze on places could easily get one out of area. 3. I do not know if we really will save what DH says and no clue how to work it out definitively. Relocation package is €5,000, which to me seems like it won't touch the sides what with flights to and fro and furnishing a 4-bed house out there from scratch.

Main issue I suppose is our relationship is not great and DH has never grasped the concept of emotional support. He takes his responsibilities seriously and gives lots of his time to the kids but I don't feel he is really there for me. I'm too scared to leave all my other supports and put myself in a position where he is all I have. We were in Relate last year and DS2 was conceived in fit of optimism thereafter.

So DH is desperate to go, as the job there is beyond his wildest dreams. I would hate to hold him back from that. One possibility is he goes for a year on his own (he needs at least the first two big projects) but how could I do that to DS1, even if I could do it to DH?!

It seems impossible whichever way I turn and we need to decide soon. Hubby keeps saying about financial gain (but is it really?!) and I will make new friends but the biggest loss is my mum and the school place. dH says would be for a couple of years.

Over to you. I am soooo stressed and distressed.

Hi Wicked you ask a good question. Hard to answer. I did love him deeply but my needs changed a lot when I became a stay at home mum, and stuff became an issue where I hadn't really noticed before because I was out in the world myself, chatting away to lots of people and picking up different things from different people. Now what he can do (or not do!) in the way of emotional support shows up so much more. I know he means well but times are very tricky now.

What you say about different neighbourhoods scares me! How do you figure that stuff out, really?

I think, then, that it's not necessarily fair to expect your DH to pick up the slack for all the people you were interacting with before and for him to be your sole source of support and social life. If you move it will be lonely for a whole but if you put in the effort you will honestly make friends and you can lead a full life of your own, particularly when both your children are in school. There will be lots of expats about in your position, and you will have the time and money to pursue your hobbies, learn about whatever interests you, explore, and make friends and connections along the way.

To research neighbourhoods start by looking at liveability and walk ability scores. Then just google. You will probably find chat forums for the most interesting neighbourhoods. Sign up, say hello, and see what people have to say.

I know what you mean, but in Relate last year it was pretty much concluded that it wasn't unreasonable expectations in me (I was never sure) and that he is just quite rubbish at that stuff.

He's not a talker and he is very self-contained (forced to be through crap parents) so he just doesn't get what Is required.

I think it really would be best if he went out there initially regardless for several months. That way when you go over he can show you the ropes, have people to introduce you to etc. etc.

Obviously timings would come into as well. If he went over soon, you could go over for the summer holidays with a view to moving out there at Christmas or Easter perhaps?

Remember their is skype etc. too.

cookie you talk about your son not seeing his Dad all the time. My DP's Dad was a ship's captain and used to go away for 2 or 3 month stints at a time. DP says that it wasn't that bad- they knew that was Dad's job and when he was home they had him really there and not just out at work all day, tired in the evenings and at weekends. DP and his brother and sister have all turned out very well adjusted and have happy childhood memories. Maybe try to think of it a bit like that, and see if he could negotiate decent leave, and you and they could go to the US in his school hols.

150k family income in NYC would afford an average at best lifestyle.

5k relocation seams like a mistake, surerly they have missed a 0 off?

Oh what a difficult dilemma. There is no simple answer... If you go, you could end up resenting him, if you stay, he could end up resenting you

Your recent post about leaning on him more emotionally since stopping work, resonates. I was only ever at home for a short time on ML, but even in those few months I could feel myself expecting things from my DH which I hadn't previously. He'd walk in the door at. 6pm and I'd almost pounce on him for adult conversation, work gossip... Not that I was unhappy on ML, far from it, but there is no doubt that it changes the dynamic, and if you are used to a lively career where you are interacting with people you wouldn't normally come across then it's a wrench to lose that

This may sound totally left field, but in the light of what you say, would a 'compromise' be for you to restart your career? I know it wouldn't resolve the issue of him wanting to move to the States, but it would do the following:

• give you an opportunity to save. It sounds like a big motivator for him is saving so it would tick that box
• you would find it easier to accept that your DH is not a talker, he doesn't find it easy to communicate. Although he has a duty to do his best, he's unlikely to ever change radically, and it sounds as though your relationship was happier when you had a wider circle to rely on than him and your mother.
• the very fact of you working too would shift the balance so that there's a more powerful argument for your views to be taken into account on work related issues. I think if one partner gives up work and one is the sole earner, then it automatically means that the working partner carries more weight about work decisions. Not that they can just do what they like! But I know if I was sole earner and my DH had given up work, I would expect to have more freedom over decisions like relocation, whether to take on the extra pressure of promotion etc, and vice versa if my DH was sole earner. To me that would be a logical part of the deal. When there are two careers to consider, then your DH would not have such a strong argument for moving.

That's just an idea, because it sounds as though something needs to change quite fundamentally to get your relationship back on track. Things are rocky, and it's never good if one partner is using their own parent as more of a support than their partner, so I would suggest trying to redress the balance - ultimately that's the key thing. The NYC thing may or may not happen, but ultimately that's just a part of a far bigger issue, it seems to me

He wants you to,do this, he wants you to do that.

And you go and do it.

Do you even realise how over a barrel he would have you in the US?

The courts there are not like here at all when it comes to splits.

Joint custody is VERY common. And you have no visa to stay. So he meets another women at work and guess what, you go home with no boys.

I shit you not.

It's all about him, him, him and what he wants, but you do all the legwork.

He wants to go, he goes alone and visits every few months. Or you go out for holidays.

Your marriage is far from stable (I can see why), that offer is crap, there are some VERY bad areas in NJ, and you have NO safety net if things go awry.

In the example you quote though, CookieTramp, the poster who relocated to NJ is living in a 2 bed apartment and not the 4 bed house you want.

Wow,Expat tell me how you really feel!

Lots to think about. You are right but it is hard to go into it with such worst-case expectations. Yet it is true. But that would be true even if we had the best-ever relationship, and then nobody would ever risk it, ever.

Janey that does make sense but with Baby 4mo it's not something that can happen now. I do freelance to keep some blood pumpin through my career but i couldn't do the type of out-of-the-house thing that would bring the benefits you mention. Not now, anyway.

As to his going and getting it going and getting a little social circle going for me to join later, that can't happen. He can't rent a family home and commute if I not definitely coming. He would get a little hole of a flat in Brooklyn until I came over. And then he would still know as little about NJ as me.

Maybe it can't happen right now cookie, but you could plan to return to work within the year; that's a realistic time scale and would address some of the issues you raise.

I can really see both sides. He must pick up, on some level, that you rely more on your mother emotionally than on him, and that's really bad news in a relationship. He will also feel as the sole earner that this is an opportunity for him which you're in a position to take, whereas if you were working too, the loss of your career and income would be an added facts that he'd have to take into account.

I agree that the package he's been offered rings alarm bells, and I've known people who've relocated to the states and also the Middle East on the promise of riches and the reality has turned out to be far less lucrative. So you're wise to be cautious. And I can also see that if he goes out alone first, he will live a very different lifestyle probably as a single man living out of a suitcase in a bedsit! So that's not much insight into how it will be.

Hmmm. No easy solution: you just need to talk, however hard he finds it, and both be open to the fact that your relationship isn't in the best health and you need to work to getting back to where you were. You say you loved him deeply but it seems like you've drifted

Cookie, the difference is that there, you have NO safety net and NO leverage. I don't think you realise how differently it works there. You will not be able to stay in your own right or work. And they don't do human rights. Your are being very, very foolish to even consider this.

Much less do all the work for this.

in Relate last year it was pretty much concluded that it wasn't unreasonable expectations in me (I was never sure) and that he is just quite rubbish at that stuff.

If he isn't able to give you what you need then I think you need to make a choice. Either accept it or leave him. Because it sounds like he's trying (is he trying?) but just not able to give you the emotional support you're looking for.

Sorry if what I am about to say sounds harsh, but I think you are being unfair to him. You state that the results from Relate were that you are right and he is wrong. Do you feel this now gives you something to hold against him forever and use to get what you want from him, i.e. that he gives up his dream job so you can stay? Because it doesn't. It gives you the right to stay with him and compromise knowing what is missing OR it gives you the right to leave without feeling guilty. It doesn't give you the right to make life choices for the both of you forever based on the fact that he is not perfect.

You are clearly a very capable, adventurous and independent woman if you lived in Japan for four years on your own. Yet now you are letting quite small concerns hold you back. A school place?? That is not worth fretting about and neither is the money as it's good enough as long as he renegotiated relocation. As for your mother she is a much bigger concern but you can spend at least the three months summer holidays with her and presumably you can visit.

It sounds like your husband really wants this for his career and it sounds like you could do with a change yourself. Find your independence and spirit of adventure and go. Make the most of this chance - it's an exciting opportunity and may not come again.

Quite small? She has no right to work there, no right to stay if the relationship fails, no right to bring her children back if they are there long enough to be considered resident (that is one year in many states).

This man wants to just go, he leaves all the number crunching to her because he has already decided.

OP there's no way on earth I would move thousands of miles away to be in a less than perfect relationship. And the thought that the cracks in the relationship might become irretrievable rifts, leading to me losing my kids, makes me feel ill just thinking about it.

Do you really think your needs in the marriage will be met better in another continent, where you know no one and miss your Mum and support network?

And quite frankly, I think that given you went to Relate and reached something of a stalemate, I think your DH is being very unfair asking you to make this enormous sacrifice. He clearly doesn't rate your happiness very high on his score of importance.

Good luck with your decision. If it were me I'd be staying here.

And if he goes alone its HIS choice to leave his family, so any tears from your DS should be on DH's conscience, not yours. He's the one who picked up the goal posts and moved them totally.

Lots of new stuff to consider here, but to clarify, Relate didn't conclude that I was "right". We did conclude that my expectations weren't unreasonable, and that it is not his strong suit. But there were also unhelpful things that I do that knock our communication and I don't see our problems as all his fault.

I don't think a school place is a small thing.

Cookie, just to give you an idea of how little power you have on a 'spouse' visa: essentially, I had exactly the same rights as my 6 week old baby.

• I could not open a bank account
• I could not have a credit card.
• I could not be named as the bill holder for ANY utilities (in order to transfer the house water bill to our name, for example, my DH had to take half a day off work to come to the relevant office with me. Given he was working 6.5 days a week, all these things had a big impact on our life)
• I could not conduct any financial transaction / enter into any contract, so for example I could not have signed DS up for a nursery had we been there that long, because without DH's signature on the form, the contract would not have been valid.

Exactly, teacher. I am American, my husband is Scottish. We will likely live there in later years, after our children are adults. But he'll be going with a 'green card' and Social Security number, able to work, get a driving license, etc.

You cannot get any help if things go awry there, and they WILL deport you.

It's not because you're a spouse, it's because you don't have a credit history. Once you get a social security number and credit history, it's much easier. In NYC itself it's a bit easier as well because they're more used to us aliens :)

Where's your husband's future office btw? Why is he only considering NJ? What about Westchester or long island - or even the outer boroughs (there are areas with good schools)?

We moved with a less than perfect marriage and it's been great. Most marriages aren't picture perfect. You could probably sign an agreement that the move is temporary and that your permanent residence is the UK.

I think the biggest issue is that you're raising valid concerns and your dh is just waving them off. He seems very breezy about the saving bit but I just don't see how. I agree that it's a nice salary, and many people certainly get by on less, but a nice lifestyle as an expat plus savings - the sums don't add up. What are his sums?

Is there any way you could all go for a look-see?

I have to give permission via notarised letter if we were in the US and my British husband wished to take our British children back to the UK without me, too. Even for a visit.

Really? I flew by myself with my kids from the US just a few weeks ago with no letter from my husband.

Yes, really. I am American and my husband is British. Our children are dual nationals.

If it was me and my marriage was rocky I would be paying a great deal of attention to the rules/laws on separation and divorce. If one year is enough to be considered habitual residence for young children then that is frankly terrifying.

If he wants the job that badly then he should go alone.