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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 12:03

Nickolas Coke couldn’t speak, eat or walk and frequently suffered from debilitating seizures. He was on pain medication throughout the three years of his life.

bum, I'm sure even you wouldn't dare judge a woman who chose to terminate rather than have her child face such suffering.

CaptChaos · 05/04/2014 12:09

Bumbley

"The body of the foetus is inside the body of the mother, therefore she has the say over what happens to it. "

Right up to term?

Yes. It is the woman's uterus, therefore it is her choice and her choice only about what gets to be in there.

Also just wanted to point out that it's not just Christians who are against abortion.

Nope, other misogynistic patriarchal religious belief systems also think they have a right to dictate to women what they are allowed to do with their bodies.

Dawndonna, why do I bother? For the same reason as you and anyone else on the thread I guess. What about the people who are hurt and suffering from the idea of people having abortions? The people who can't conceive? The people who are genuinely distressed by innocent lives being terminated? Do you consider them when you're posting?

How does my decision to abort affect anyone else? It's my uterus, not some public baby carrying vessel, get real! I don't need to consider anyone else when making decisions about my body, thanks.

Pit, I don't see anything wrong with your posts. You are making some very valid points.

You don't see anything wrong with someone being unbelievably nasty to a woman who is being forced by the state to carry a foetus which will not survive? Says it all really, doesn't it.

As a PP said, if you don't like the idea of abortion, don't have one, problem solved. You have no fucking right to tell any one else what they can and can't do with their own fucking bodies.

FreudiansSlipper · 05/04/2014 12:11

I am sure she would Suburban as she does not beleive in abortion, she is pro life this means that all life is equal no matter the health complications or risk

I know a few people who are, an opinion I strongly disagree with but they would not inflict their beliefs on others in such a bullying and demeaning way as the protestors in the op

it's a simple choice with no grey areas you are either pro choice or pro life

SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 12:13

^ this ^

SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 12:14

And yours, of course, freudian Blush

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 12:32

I'd like to point out that as far as I'm concerned Bum does believe in abortion because I believe that life starts at conception but she says it's implantation and OK to use abortifacient contraception which I (as a prolife Christian) think is wrong. In my eyes she believes that murder is acceptable up to a particular point. I believe my idea of when life starts is the most accurate and she should be following that.

(I'd also like to point out you can be prolife and prochoice, which I am)

(I'd also like to point out that there is Biblical backing for 5 weeks being when life starts)

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 12:34

That was a cross post, I wasn't answering Freudian but I still stand by it.

FreudiansSlipper · 05/04/2014 12:41

How can you be pro life and pro choice it makes no sense

pro choice is about women having full autonomy over their body and as uncomfortable as many people are about late terminations that is what being pro choice is about

somewhere in the middle by putting restrictions on women having a choice is not being pro choice it is wanting to restrict women over control over their own body

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 12:45

Because I believe women should have the choice but it's not something I personally could do. My personal choice is life. A lot of the people I know who are prochoice are the same as me.

FreudiansSlipper · 05/04/2014 13:00

then your stance is pro choice as you think women should have that choice not what you yourself would or would not do

I should have put you are pro choice or not, not necessarily pro life if you are not pro choice, but pro choice is that women have control over their body

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 13:05

Fatlazy, that was in response to dawn Donna suggesting that I shouldn't post because my opinion might upset people. I'm just pointing out that other people may be hurt//upset/offended by abortion but no one tells you not to post.

I'm under no illusion that anyone here would be persuaded by my opinion. I've been on MN far too long for that!

Moomin,
"Yes, right up to term."

See, I find that 'disgusting' and 'barbaric' (to use terms that frequently crop up when people talk about pro-lifers)Tbh I doubt that you actually genuinely believe it at all. No rational person could say that it is ok to kill a foetus that is perfectly capable of surviving outside the mother simply because the mother doesn't want it. I realise that you have to say that to make your point though.

Also, Catholics do refer to it as innocent life and you don't have to be religious to object to abortion.

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 13:07

Yes, but I feel it's important to show that you can be against abortion personally and still be prochoice.

I say that but it's theoretical really, I have taken MAP (which as you can probably guess from my PP I am against) after a rape and it might make people feel better to know that I asked my church for counselling first. Our counsellor had to tell our minister off because he came out of his office to tell me off "What ya messing about for woman, just take the thing already!" she gave me the politer version of it! I am also aware that another pregnancy could jeopardise myself and the baby so I would have to seriously consider if I kept a pregnancy. In the past before I knew about my health problems I would have said I would live with it but now it's too much.

FreudiansSlipper · 05/04/2014 13:16

maybe because it sits more comfortably with yourself and that others should know

maybe that is tied up with your religious beliefs I do not know but for someone who is pro choice your choice to or not to is personal but that you have and can have that choice is what is important

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 13:17

Surburban, interesting opinion. Do you feel that way about all disabled children/people? Should women be allowed to kill their children if they become disabled because they don't want to see then suffering? What about their partners?

Btw Nikolas' parents obviously thought his life was worthwhile and they made it as happy for him as possible.some of the last pictures of him were of him smiling and laughing with a pumpkin,

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 13:18

Capt "Nope, other misogynistic patriarchal religious belief systems also think they have a right to dictate to women what they are allowed to do with their bodies."

Oh yes, those misigynistic, patriarchal atheists and agnostics Hmm

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 13:19

Btw swearing doesn't strengthen your argument.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 13:23

Confused, I'd like to point out that you're wrong about bring able to be pro-life and pro-choice. Also, I've never referred to abortion as murder so you're wrong there too. Also many Catholics don't consider the MAP abortion because its not an abortant. It's preventing implantation.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 13:24

Wow, Freudian and I agree on something - you can't be pro-life and pro-choice.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 13:27

This reply has been deleted

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FreudiansSlipper · 05/04/2014 13:28

I actually find I am pro choice up to ...., only if complicatons, only if woman/girl has been raped hypocritical

because you are not pro choice at all

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 13:43

Bumbley, the Catholic Church is absolutely clear about its position that life must be considered to begin at conception, not implantation: hence its opposition to all embryo research, IVF that creates extra embryos that might later be destroyed, & other things besides abortion.

The MAP is possibly acceptable, according to the Church, only if its likely purpose will be to prevent ovulation / fertilization in that cycle; not if it's likely that fertilization has already taken place. Some documents argue that even rape victims should have tests to determine that they're not already pregnant & possibly to determine the stage they're at in their cycle, before emergency contraception can be used.

Many Catholics may not agree but many Catholics no doubt pick & choose what they accept as it's the only way they can comfortably remain within the Church. There are no doubt priests & bishops who don't agree either.

That's still the teaching, though, & it seems dishonest to try & soften it to make it more palatable.

Does anyone else find the labels pro-life & pro-choice extremely unhelpful in this area? I wish pro-lifers would just describe themselves as anti-abortion or anti legalized abortion. I would happily describe myself as pro legal abortion / pro abortion rights.

fatlazymummy · 05/04/2014 13:49

bumbly I didn't just mean on mumsnet. I meant in real life as well. Kind of how the WBC ended up challenging homophobic attitudes.People looked at them and thought 'I don't want to be like them'.

differentnameforthis · 05/04/2014 13:53

I disagree with using the word vigil for what they are doing.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 14:17

"I actually find I am pro choice up to ...., only if complicatons, only if woman/girl has been raped hypocritical

because you are not pro choice at all"

I agree with you on that too Freudian.

Loon, you're telling me more things I already know/have said myself. "many Catholics no doubt pick & choose what they accept as it's the only way they can comfortably remain within the Church." I don't think that's restricted to Catholicism. Everyone picks and chooses the bits they like about their religion. How many Christians had sex before marriage for example?

Agree with you about the pro-life, pro-choice labels.

Fatlazy, well I was replying to someone's post.

SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 14:30

bum

"Surburban, interesting opinion. Do you feel that way about all disabled children/people? Should women be allowed to kill their children if they become disabled because they don't want to see then [sic] suffering? What about their partners?"

Two questions:

1.Do I feel what way about all disabled people?

  1. Why have you brought up the subject of children who become disabled? We're talking about abortion on this thread. And I'm talking about not judging a woman who has an abortion if the foetus has anencephaly just because of one known case where the parents decided not to terminate.
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