To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

[Menolly]

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

Why aren't you answering suburban? Do the questions make you uncomfortable? Do you think the fact that Nikolas couldn't speak, eat or walk, had seizures and needed pain medication made his life worthless? Why did you bring those things up when I mentioned him in response to someone who said that anencephaly was incompatible with life?

Does anyone else find the labels pro-life & pro-choice extremely unhelpful in this area? I wish pro-lifers would just describe themselves as anti-abortion or anti legalized abortion. I would happily describe myself as pro legal abortion / pro abortion rights.

I find the label 'pro-life' unhelpful as it suggests (on a semantic level) that its opposites are either anti-life or pro-death. The term 'anti-abortion' describes these people more accurately and does what it says on the tin.

I, personally, would prefer to be described as 'pro-choice' than the alternatives you suggest, because I really do believe it should be every woman's choice to manage their own fertility in the way she sees fit. I can say, however, that I hate the phrase 'pro-abortion' as it suggests that one actively advocates for abortion in all cases of pregnancy.

bumbley

Tbh I doubt that you actually genuinely believe it at all.

I doubt that you're not a Nazi sympathiser.

Shall we keep pretending that we know what the other believes better than they know themselves, or shall we stop casting ridiculous aspersions?

FWIW I genuinely believe that. It is the woman's womb, the woman's body, the woman's choice what stays in there. If she doesn't want it in there, she should have the right to have it removed.

I realise that you have to say that to make your point though.

No, I say that because it is my believe as someone who is pro-choice. I couldn't have an abortion at term - I didn't even go through with an abortion at 8 weeks - but I support the right of other women to choose to do so.

So, according to wikipedia, there have been THREE recorded cases of [quote]

'anencephalic children surviving for longer periods of time are Stephanie Keene of Falls Church, Virginia, who lived for 2 years 174 days; Vitoria de Cristo, born in Brazil in January 2010 and surviving until July 17, 2012;[20] Nickolas Coke[21] of Pueblo, Colorado, who lived for 3 years and 11 months, died October 31, 2012'

'There is no cure or standard treatment for anencephaly and the prognosis for patients is death. Most anencephalic fetuses do not survive birth, accounting for 55% of non-aborted cases. If the infant is not stillborn, then he or she will usually die within a few hours or days after birth from cardiorespiratory arrest.'
[unquote]

But hey, let's use the vanishingly rare exceptions as an argument to tell women they really should be carrying these fetuses to term, because clearly they don't have enough on their plates already.

Twofingers, but as Freudian has pointed out, unless you support a woman's right to choose abortion to term for any reason, you aren't actually pro-choice. What do you think the people who think abortion is ok under certain circumstances/ up to a certain point should be called?

Moomin, what do nazi sympathisers have to do with anything? I don't believe that any rational person can genuinely think that it is ok to kill a healthy foetus that could survive outside the woman simply because the woman doesn't want it any more. If you genuinely believe that then I think you are irrational and are taking your feminist principles too far.

"let's use the vanishingly rare exceptions as an argument to tell women they really should be carrying these fetuses to term"

I wasn't using them as that at all. I was just saying that anencephaly isn't always incompatible with life.

How do you feel about aborting for other disabilities?

bumbley You saying you don't believe I truly think what I said, with no evidence at all, is exactly the same as me suggesting that you are a Nazi sympathiser with no evidence at all - offensive and ridiculous.

I don't believe that any rational person can advocate forcing a woman to carry something in her body that she doesn't want there, purely because they find the alternative personally offensive. And I believe that if you or anyone else genuinely believes that, you are irrational and too full of your own self-importance.

My feelings on abortion are nothing to do with feminism. It's my feelings on everyone, male or female, being entitled to autonomy over their own bodies.

How do you feel about aborting for other disabilities?

You've asked me that on other threads. You seem to make a habit of bringing it up. Being pro-choice means it's irrelevant what I feel about aborting for disabilities unless I am the person who has to make the decision.

If you're asking what I personally would have done if I'd found out during pregnancy that I was carrying a disabled child, my answer is that it would have depended on a raft of things, including severity of disability, my own ability to cope, etc., the feeling of other members of my immediate family, how much support I might have had. I'm fairly sure you'd like to twist this around to your usual accusation about not 'valuing' disabled people's lives, but the fact is that I would also take account of all of the above when considering whether to continue with a pregnancy where the fetus had no known disabilities.

Moomin, not at all. No rational person can think it is ok to terminate a life on someone else's whim ( ie for a woman to decide to abort a perfectly healthy foetus that no longer needs her to survive simply because she doesn't want it anymore). If you say that you honestly think that is ok then I think you're either lying or irrational. You wouldn't think it was ok for her to kill the baby at birth if she decided she didn't want it would you?

"It's my feelings on everyone, male or female, being entitled to autonomy over their own bodies."

Except if they're a foetus.

I will keep posting it Bumbly you are refusing to address it, just as you accuse others of refusing to address points. Just as with your campaign, it is ignoring the inconvenient.

Moomin, just to be clear, I'm
Not singling you out. I think the same of any genuine 'pro-lifer' .

What do you want me to address Dawn? You think I'm insensitive for posting my opinion on anottion because it might offend people. Your opinion might offend people too but I don't ask you not to post. I guess that must demonstrate how selfish you are too then?

Because the foetus' body is inside someone else's, and I don't consider a foetus to be capable of body autonomy.

I don't equate abortion to "terminating a life on someone else's whim", because that equates it to murder. In my eyes, the two are completely separate. Abortion is the act of ending a pregnancy. Sentimentalising it as 'oh but it's an ickle baybee" or "innocent miraculous life" is pointless to the woman carrying it; she sees it as a parasite or an unwanted intruder and she should have the right to have it removed - whether by abortion prior to or after 24 weeks, or even induction of labour and a termination o her parental rights and responsibilities when she decides she doesn't want it in her body anymore. Baby is born and has a chance to live, she retains autonomy over her own body, bish bash bosh.

Once the baby is born, it is no longer inside her body, so I wouldn't agree with killing an unwanted baby at birth.

Bumble

A foetus isn't autonomous so, no they don't factor in to having autonomous choice.

I support women's right to choose to abort for any reason. What I would do personally has nothing to do with it. You either are pro-choice or you aren't.

I know someone who had an abortion late on, 18 weeks, possibly later. Certainly everybody knew she was pregnant. Her partner ended their relationship and kicked her out of the home they shared but he owned. She had no proper support network as she lived and worked hours away from where she had grown up. Her circumstances changed and she felt she could not continue the pregnancy and raise the child. She told most she had had a miscarriage.

Would I have done the same in her shoes? I don't know.

Do I support her right to choice to do so? Yes.

What do you want me to address Dawn? You think I'm insensitive for posting my opinion on anottion because it might offend people. Your opinion might offend people too but I don't ask you not to post. I guess that must demonstrate how selfish you are too then?
I actually thought you were brighter than that.
Your sentence, highlighted above rather demonstrates that. I shall keep posting though, because then everybody can see that you are rude and selfish. Your strawman arguments, appeal to emotion to quoque logical fallacies are falling on dear ears. You are seemingly unable to have a logical argument, ergo, you should not be arguing. Simple.
In the meantime I shall keep posting your most odd sentence.

"Because the foetus' body is inside someone else's, and I don't consider a foetus to be capable of body autonomy. "

How convenient. Do you think it has a body?

No one is sentimentalising it here btw and it's not a parasite. Not sure how you can think it is rational to draw a line at 'inside woman/outside woman' as where a right to life begins. I guess that's what you have to do though.

bumble

Do you understand what autonomy actually means in the context of autonomous choice/life? I'm getting the impression that you do not.

Alis, if you support it then you must think it's ok. I don't believe that any rational person can genuinely think that. It's a shame that your friend couldn't go to the Life charity to get some help and support to continue the pregnancy. Doesn't sound like she felt she had much of a 'choice' there.

Well, yes...I do think it was okay for her to make that choice. For any woman to make that choice.

I've no idea what support or alternatives she had or looked into. She told me quite some time later and to question whether she had looked into alternatives would have been insensitive beyond belief.

Well, yes...I do think it was okay for her to make that choice. For any woman to make that choice.

I've no idea what support or alternatives she had or looked into. She told me quite some time later and to question whether she had looked into alternatives would have been insensitive beyond belief.

Please do Dawn, if you feel the need. I am just as entitled to post my opinions on this thread as anyone else. If you think people shouldn't post because their opinions may offend someone then you are just showing yourself up as equally rude and selfish because some people find your opinions upsetting too and you are continuing to post. How thoughtless of you.

Far more illogical arguments coming from the 'its not alive/doesn't have a body/doesn't have rights while it is still attached to/inside the woman' folk IMO.

Two fingers, I asked you because I was interested in your opinion. If you would choose to abort a foetus for a disability when you would have otherwise kept it if it had been healthy then I think you are disabilist and value disabled lives less.
Perhaps you didn't read my answer or perhaps I wasn't clear. I did not say I would abort for a disablity. I said I would take many things into account, which I would also do when considering whether to take any pregnancy to term - even one where no disability was detected, so you can fuck right off with your 'disablist' comments.