To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

[Menolly]

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

Just tell them calmly that god doesn't exist and they're all wasting their time as there's no heaven for them to go to. Just a nice big hole in the ground. See how they like their opinions questioned.

Nice idea, Boris, but actually most people are polite and respectful of other people's beliefs - unlike these demonstrators who clearly feel exempt from normal boundaries of behaviour and want to push their own beliefs down other people's throats, regardless of the emotions or circumstances of their 'victims'.

You can donate to BPAS

That Tim Minchin song is bloody brilliant.

Bumbly why do you bother, the majority disagree with you. Some are hurt by your stance. Some are suffering and still you carry on regardless. I thought you didn't have time.

It just seems that many are missing the point- if you believe that an act of ending a life is occurring then you are going to protest.
the number of 160 is not exactly piddling when it comes to terminations near 24 weeks, as a poster described it....
Babyface you are sickened by my posts...I suspect these protesters are sickened by what they see as an act of ending a life.
It is possible to be both pro choice and sympathetic to protesters at the same time. My own views have changed over time and as I have become more educated and have heard what is involved with later term terminations for whatever reasons they are made for whilst I respect a woman's choice to choose it does not mean that I don't also respect the right of someone to protest what they think on this serious matter.
As I said one of their objections is to make people think about what they are doing- plenty of women who do not see termination as an act of ending a life will be utterly unaffected by such protesters.
For the woman who turns back and changes her decision...I suspect she will be grateful for them making a stand.

Fucking hell Pit, you are one of these people aren't you? Did you even read Babyface's post? Do you give a shit about what one poor woman is going through?

Just out of interest, Pit, how many of those 160 late terminations do you think are frivolous? After 24 weeks abortions are only allowed in the UK:
-if it is necessary to save the woman's life
-to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman
-if there is substantial risk that if the child were born, s/he would have physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped

My friend had a termination around 28 weeks. Her baby had anencephaly. Do you think she should have carried it to term? Another friend in Dublin had a baby with the same condition and was forced to carry it to term, which was heart-breaking for her. I make no apology for repeating this twice on this thread.

Your post does seem to suggest women who are going for terminations are too naive or stupid to understand what they're doing and that a pamphlet might make them change their minds. Do you really think women are so unthinking and gullible? That's a pretty misogynistic attitude, isn't it?

I really don't think you can be genuinely pro choice and support what these protestors are doing. I mean, really? How does that work? You think women have a right to chose, but that other people have a right to interfere with that choice?

pit You are heartless, ffs! You are clearly the type who would and probably does protest outside the likes of Marie Stopes clinics.

Shame on you pit

babyface,sending you positive vibes. Take care of yourself x

I have not read every post on here so no I have not read babyface's post...I am responding to the op post...and the posts I have read.

Clearly some women face very tough decisions around what they should do when faced with something life threatening for the child as your friend faced- heart breaking I can imagine. I am not saying that I do not support women's right to choose what happens in such circumstances.

But the point is that the people protesting believe this is an act of ending a being's life....now I would argue that there are many circumstances where ending a being's life may well be more humane than continuing it, but that is my opinion and his thread is about people who i suspect hold a different opinion. I can respect their opinion without holding it because I understand where they are coming from-it is about choosing to end the life of a developing being and that is a big deal and some women may well make the decision under pressure/in haste...I certainly know friends who have. I can see that people protesting may change some women's minds and I do not see that as a bad thing-if that is what the woman wants.

The people do not have a right to interfere with these women's choices and I would stand up against them if they tried to do this, if the opportunity presented itself-they do have a right to make a stand in line with their moral viewpoint and protest the act.I suspect, knowing how many friends I have, who have indeed had abortions and seem to have presented themselves as being totally unaffected by the process, such people will be unaffected by them, knowing they have made a decision that is right for them.Not all women are in this position and I do not see it as a negative thing that their presence may give such women the encouragement to make a choice that is better for them

I shall ignore your last post for the minute. I strongly suggest you go back, read properly and apologise sincerely.

It isn't against the law in the UK to have a termination.

Protesting against it will do nothing but distress women who are making a very difficult CHOICE.

Now you're deciding where people can pray

Lines like that would be funny if not so basically nasty.

as I have become more educated and have heard what is involved with later term terminations

You've been going to the pro-life meetings again haven't you. A white sheet on the wall to project fake pictures of dustbins full of foetuses and badly printed leaflets that tell you abortion causes everything from acne to communism.

Anencephaly is not 'life threatening', it is not compatiblewith life. There is a difference. Being forced to carry a baby to term, knowing that they will die is not just difficult. It is fucking abhorrent to make a woman go through that. It is state sanctioned emotional and physical torture.

They have buffer zones around the clinics in the US. That would be useful here, though I'm disappointed that people are pulling this shit in the UK. I did think that was a USA only type of wickedness.

I'm irritated that I didn't bookmark the site because I can't find it now, but there is a website for abortion clinic workers that tells some amazing stories - like the hardcore protester who brought her own daughter in to have an abortion and was back outside protesting a week later. And that kind of hypocrisy is very common.

I haven't read the whole thread babyface, please forgive me if it's not appropriate, but this www.abortionsupport.org.uk is a charity dedicated to helping women from Ireland and N.I access safe abortions in the UK. Again, sorry if it's not relevant to your situation, or upsetting.

OP, you have to remember not to be verbally abusive if you do counter protest - bring your best passive-aggressive game, but don't do anything that could get the police called, including calling them vile soulless cuntbags, however much they deserve it. Actually I would totally be up for some counter-protesting in the Oxfordshire area if it's required? Off to google...

Matthew 6:5-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Model Prayer

5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.[a] 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

Do I need to write my thoughts on this?

I don't need to tell people where they can pray, Jesus did a good job of it Himself.

(slow response to myself as I've been reading the thread and fell asleep)

I said before I wasn't going to post about my grandmother and what happened to her in the 1930's, but feel the need because of what's been posted since.

Sincere apologies to anyone who finds this upsetting.

My GM was a fervent Roman Catholic, as was my GF. She had heart problems and severe anaemia amongst other health issues, had a lot of trouble carrying babies to term and suffered several late miscarriages and stillbirths while having four living children (the last of whom, my mother, was severely premature). I don't know the exact circumstances of her last pregnancy, but basically her doctor told her that the baby was 100% likely to be born dead and would probably kill her in the carrying of it. Thankfully they were living in the UK rather than their native Ireland at the time, so a termination was recommended to her.

My GF, despite his faith and beliefs (he was one of the loveliest, kindest men I've ever known), said of course have a termination, there is no way I will risk losing you. GM said she'd have to ask the priest. The priest said he'd have to ask the bishop. The bishop took a month to get back to them, and said (we still have the ruling, in a bunch of GM's papers) that it was permissable for GM to have a termination "as she was already mother to four children, so it was better to lose one child than leave four children without a mother" - I dread to think what would have happened if it had been her first .

So it seems that back in the 1930's, the Church was not inflexible. However because of their teachings, my poor GM forever felt shame and guilt over the 'murder' of her child (that would never have drawn breath anyway). That's despicable. The fact that she had been made to feel like this by the church and consequently was prepared to put her health and well-being into the hands of some random bishop is unbelievably appalling.

Some people on this thread need to have a good hard examination of themselves. I don't go to church much these days but I have a strong recollection of Jesus having plenty to say about smug hypocrites paying lipservice to religion whilst being entirely devoid of charity. Whited Sepulchres, anyone?

"The body of the foetus is inside the body of the mother, therefore she has the say over what happens to it. "

Right up to term?

Also just wanted to point out that it's not just Christians who are against abortion.

Dawndonna, why do I bother? For the same reason as you and anyone else on the thread I guess. What about the people who are hurt and suffering from the idea of people having abortions? The people who can't conceive? The people who are genuinely distressed by innocent lives being terminated? Do you consider them when you're posting?

Pit, I don't see anything wrong with your posts. You are making some very valid points.

Also, anencephaly isn't necessarily incompatible with life. Nikolas Coke was born with anencephaly and lived until he was 3.

bumblymummy perhaps those people who are are 'hurt and upset' over other people who are having abortions should just mind their own business and stop trying to impose their own views on others.
People like you don't tend to persuade people to agree with you. Quite the opposite in fact.

bumbley

Yes, right up to term.

"What about people who are hurt and suffering from the idea of people having abortions?"

It's really none of their business.

"The people who can't conceive?"

The person having a termination isn't terminating the baby of the people who can't conceive. If I was to have had an abortion, I wouldn't have been aborting my SIL's baby (they are struggling to conceive currently). People don't tend to shout about having had an abortion, so why do you assume they'll know about it anyway?

"The people who are genuinely distressed by innocent lives being terminated?"

Hate to burst your bubble, but more often than not it seems to be Catholics who protest against abortion. In the eyes of the Catholic church, I thought the foetus/baby isn't innocent until it's been baptised - so it's not an 'innocent life'.

And again - it's none of their business. It's like people who argue against gay marriage because they find it offensive - well don't have a gay marriage then! If you find abortion offensive, don't have one.

What about the people who are hurt and suffering from the idea of people having abortions?
I have honestly never come across a more smug and sanctimonious sentence in my life, demonstrating very, very clearly how abominably selfish you and your ilk are.

Now you're deciding where people can pray

There is a difference between quietly praying and a prayer vigil, my brother says a quiet prayer each time he passes certain things, 99% of people wouldn't even notice him praying, he is not blocking people access to a medical facility, making a song and dance of it because that is unnecessary. You don't need to make a big fuss of praying and inconvenience others for God to hear you.

When I was a child a priest once told me that the people who feel the need to be seen and heard praying are generally the ones who pray for the wrong reasons or because they are not secure in their relationship with God, A quiet heartfelt prayer means far more than a thousand long impersonal prayers.

if a pregnant lady approaches a priest for support. financial, housing, counselling, spiritual or anything then you wouldn't be turned away' Oh how I wish that was true in every parish

Pit you should probably read through Babyface's posts, then you would know that what you have learned about later term abortions is nothing compared to what she is having to live through right now.

bumbley

Are you joking in your last post?

I have never read anything quite so astonishingly selfish in my life.