To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

[Menolly]

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

Just to clarify, my issue is not whether people think abortion is right or wrong , I personally would only have an abortion if there was no chance of my child surviving but it is not my place to tell other women that's how they should feel, I don't believe that pro-life charities shouldn't campaign however I do believe that there is a time and place and that outside a clinic is not it.

These protesters don't know if the woman they are harassing is going in there because they have been raped or because there's a medical reason, they don't even know if the woman is going in for an abortion, she might be there for an STD check, pregnancy testing, a company health check, contraceptive advice or a smear test, or she might be accessing post-abortion counselling, why should she feel uncomfortable when accessing medical help just because a bunch of protesters think she might be accessing a service they don't agree with?

Funny but we just drove past our local hospital and the pro lifers were there, dd is 12 and asked about them so I had a conversation I hadn't planned to have about a word that's actually inappropriate to have emblazoned on a banner in broad daylight.
Dd was shocked and said how horrible it was to do that to a woman who was already having to do something horrible.
Out of the mouths if babes!
I am seriously up for a counter protest if anyone fancies it.

I do Ledkr (London)

Pit
Another lapsed Catholic here so perhaps I know a tiny bit more about an RC upbringing than you do.

There are plenty of Catholics who disagree with the Churches teaching on issues like abortion and contraception seeing them as a matter between the individual and God / a individual moral choice etc.

However, the Catholic church's teaching on these topics are clear and the life of the unborn child is seen to trump the life of the mother. If you combine that with an old fashioned, insular, male dominated hierarchy then there some people who really do hold the rights of women in very low regard. There are also those who believe that they have moral certainty and a right to guide and instruct others (whether or not they are part of their religion) and to try and impose their beliefs as an absolute. I find this approach objectionable in any religion and would and do speak out about it (note - DH is muslim so I have no problem criticising muslims who take a similar approach to the morally certain Catholics).

I'm a former Catholic too, & one of the issues I find particularly odd is that procuring or assisting an abortion (if done freely, deliberately & in knowledge of the Church's teaching) is one of the very few "sins" that carries an automatic penalty of excommunication from the Church. Murder doesn't, rape doesn't.

The only other acts in the same category are some very specific "religious" offences like schism - & I think attacking the Pope is in there!

Obviously this wouldn't be a concern for non-Catholics, but the idea that killing an "unborn child" is actually worse than other forms of killing does seem very strange & I never understood it. The foetus is seen as an innocent life, but then so are the victims of other murders etc. It does suggest that somehow the involvement of women in this act - women exercising their bodily autonomy - puts it in its own category of evil, in the Church's eyes.

And yes, as Chaz says, in traditional moral theology the foetus would be saved rather than the mother in the event of a straightforward choice between the two. I think that was because the mother (if Catholic) had been baptized & would be able to go to heaven, whereas the foetus would be condemned to "limbo".

Sorry to derail the thread a bit, Menolly - I know it's the protest issue that you're concerned with - but I do think Pit was way off the mark in accusing those in disagreement with the Church of being simplistic & uneducated.

Of course most practising Catholics don't hold these attitudes now, but the Church still teaches some of them. And the patriarchal attitudes underlying them are pretty deep-rooted IMO.

I think the people who do this have something, empathy perhaps?, missing. I find it to be disgusting behaviour. Like others have said, there is nothing wrong with protesting, just not like this.

"the life of the unborn child is seen to trump the life of the mother."

The mother's life can be saved even if it results in the death of the foetus.

bumbley
Then why did Savita Halappanavar die?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741

If this is a Vigil, for the souls of the babies then I have no issue with this however if it is a protest (which is very different) then I think that this will only cause more distress and I am against it.

Someone asked up thread about the Catholic church and support, if a pregnant lady approaches a priest for support. financial, housing, counselling, spiritual or anything then you wouldn't be turned away, There is also a healing/counselling service run by the Catholic church which is available (FOC) for Women who have gone through abortion and are struggling with it.

Then hold the vigil in a church. Holding the vigil outside a clinic is a protest dressed up as piety.

Bumbleymummy, if you're referring to the teaching of the Catholic Church, you're wrong.

The mother's life can be saved at the expense of the foetus's only if the foetus dies as an indirect result of another procedure. The classic example would be if a woman had cancer of the womb / fallopian tubes & needed to have them removed in order to save her life. In this case the death of the foetus is seen as an unfortunate side effect of another medical procedure (the doctrine of "double effect").

Direct abortion is not permitted, according to Catholic teaching, even to prevent the death of the mother. Sure, plenty of Catholic theologians have disagreed with this position, but it was restated very clearly in 1930 by Pius XI & I can't find any reference to any teaching in the Catholic Catechism / papal statements etc. that contradicts this.

With an ectopic pregnancy, the fallopian tube could be removed in order to save the mother - that would come under "double effect" - but the foetus is not allowed to be removed / terminated directly.

Prolific I have no problem with people having a vigil in their own private home/church for whatever they want. If they are holding it outside a clinic or similar then it is a rather morally dubious form of protest.

I think that protesting outside a clinic is completely wrong and I'm appalled that it's allowed.

There are a lot of things that are legal in this country that some people disagree with but if you want to change them you should protest in a public place such as outside government etc not in personal places.

What would happen if Muslims started picketing off-licenses to shame and guilt people out of buying alcohol? Or if hardline atheists decided to picket local religious schools as parents were taking in their children? Or if homophobes congregated around local gay clubs with placards saying "Bum sex is bad sex" or something equally ridiculous?

The right to protest should NOT allow people to intimidate others and if it was someone other than vulnerable women being affected I'm doubtful it'd be allowed.

If this is a Vigil, for the souls of the babies then I have no issue with this however if it is a protest (which is very different) then I think that this will only cause more distress and I am against it.

I would find a prayer vigil equally distressing. The location is inappropriate. These people can pray in the privacy of their own homes or churches.

Whoops, I see PintOfTea beat me to it!

Chazs, mismanaged miscarriage.

Loonvan, I'm not sure what you think I've said but you aren't contradicting me. The woman can be given treatment to save her life even if it results in the death of the foetus. They can not actively kill the foetus.

Now you're deciding where people can pray

True, bumbley, I've reread your post more carefully & can see that you don't say that actively terminating the pregnancy is allowed by Catholic teaching.

But it does need making clear that the Church would not permit an abortion, even if continuing with the pregnancy put the woman's life in danger. So I think Chaz's point is fair enough - if it came to a point where there was a straightforward choice between terminating the pregnancy through abortion or letting the woman die, the foetus' life would trump hers. In the Church's view, that is, not mine.

Whereas you want to decide what women do with their bodies ...

Loonvan, if her life was in danger, she could be treated for the life-threatening condition.

Havant, what about the foetus' body?

I'm sure you have an answer for that, bum

What do you think about the body of the foetus or embryo?

What about it?

Now you're deciding where people can pray
Why not, if it's inappropriate? Most people don't have a problem respecting boundaries, but these people seem to think anything is fair game to get their message across. They could 'pray for souls' anywhere; obviously they're doing it outside a clinic because they have a massive Agenda. You don't get Muslims unrolling their prayer mats in the entrance to a catholic church/on the pavements of the local high street, or Satanists doing their thing on the doorstep of the local Baptist church. I imagine people can legally pray where they want, but choosing to do it outside a clinic is making a massive statement, which turns it into something that goes way beyond simple prayer.

bumbley The body of the foetus is inside the body of the mother, therefore she has the say over what happens to it.

What about that is so hard for pro-lifers to understand?

Now you're deciding where people can pray

Someone's going to say "persecuted for being Christian" next.

bumbley, only if it wasn't the pregnancy ITSELF that was the dangerous / life-threatening condition! Then she would have no choice but to go through with it, according to the Church, regardless of the impact on her health.