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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
confuddledDOTcom · 07/04/2014 21:35

As someone who doesn't personally believe in abortion I've often thought about what I would do if I had a baby that would die at birth. I changed my mind recently when I saw a baby on the news that was waiting for a transplant but couldn't get one before 3 months as they don't take donors under 3 months. Until then I'd have used it as part of my scale.

Someone once said to me at some point they would have to remove their baby's life support system and making it their own body meant that the baby didn't have to suffer a life that was just medical intervention before they died. I have a friend who has made a similar decision twice as she has had two babies with DMD and she's fully aware of what it means as she watched her brother die from it and she has carrier's disease.

Honey, I wish, as a Christian, I knew of something I could do to help - especially as a "both". I totally agree with what you say. I don't think God likes to see it happen, I think it probably hurts to see but it hurts his heart as much to see the pain that women are in. When I divorced I talked to the author of a really good book on divorce, he said to me that the Bible says God hates divorce and he feels that it's not that God hates "divorce" but hates what it represents and I feel that this is sort of the same.

I think a lot of what I think has already come out in this thread. Jesus only ever gave support, he never told people what they'd done wrong he only ever told them they were forgiven. I don't believe he'd want what has happened in his name (for the last 2000 years even!) What was it Ghandi said?

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 21:39

Capt, and some people think that people should not have control over the bodies of others....

Shall we look back at some of the names that pro-lifers have been called on this thread? They're just as bad. I didn't see you objecting to them. As I said earlier, many republicans oppose obamacare in general - nothing to do with misogynists trying to keep women 'under the thumb'. I do love a good conspiracy theory though.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 21:42

confuddled, "As someone who doesn't personally believe in abortion"

Didn't you say earlier that you thought the MAP was abortion and that you had taken the MAP? Your views seem to be very confused/conflicting on this thread.

CaptChaos · 07/04/2014 21:51

Bum, you really have no clue about what's happening in the USA, obviously. For a start, it's not Obamacare and for a second, it's not actually what Fluke was discussing. She was told to her face, by a self confessed misogynist tea party idiot that if she wanted free contraception then she was a whore.

Not entirely sure I've seen anyone call you or your cronies a cum guzzler or a whore perhaps you could reference the post?

The only body which counts in the equation is the one which has personhood and autonomy. Luckily, the law agrees with me. So that's nice.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 22:00

Capt, I didn't say they were called the same I said the names were as bad. Or do you think some name calling is better/worse than others?

"Luckily, the law agrees with me"

So you think a (healthy) foetus has personhood and autonomy at 24 weeks gestation then?

confuddledDOTcom · 07/04/2014 22:01

Yes I do, you've also (deliberately I'm sure) missed out the fact I took it after being raped and had to have counselling at my church before hand and was encouraged to do it by my pastor and counselor. You've missed out (probably deliberately again) that it was a very difficult decision and that I do regret doing it - mostly because I know my cycles/ fertility well enough to know that I probably would have got pregnant and prediagnosis it would have meant another miscarriage under my belt and I'd probably still have my daughter. You've also missed out the fact that if you don't take MAP after a rape you won't get a trial because no one who was genuinely raped would want to carry a rapists baby. Not that it's that easy to get a trial.

The reason you find me confusing is because like you I am prolife but unlike you I am also prochoice. That means I believe everyone should have the choice but my choice is I wouldn't have one. You also missed out I it has meant I have a severely disabled child.

Amazingly not everyone who is prolife wants to inflict their views on others or take control of another woman's uterus. Not every Christian wants to go against their faith and judge women in hard situations they can not empathise with.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 22:15

No, I wasn't deliberately missing it out. You just said that you personally didn't believe in abortion in your last post but you have said that you think the MAP is abortion. Are you now saying that you don't think it is abortion in the case of rape? I'm just trying to clear up your opinion. You have said a few conflicting things previously. Eg. about being pro-life and pro-choice. (which is not possible as has already been pointed out to you by people on both sides of this debate)

pommedeterre · 07/04/2014 22:19

Should we point out at this point that whilst at 24 weeks foetuses that are born are given a chance at life if born whether they'll live or not is an entirely different question? I think it's 50/50 ish?

It just seems to be taken for granted here that they will live for sure and that just isn't true.

Slightly off topic but it bugs me during these discussions.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 22:21

If they're aborted they have zero chance of life.

pommedeterre · 07/04/2014 22:23

Bumbled - have I riled you somewhat. Because that was just stupid.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 22:26

Not stupid at all. Why are you bringing up that they may not survive if delivered at 24 weeks? I don't think anyone is assuming that they survive but are you saying that because they 'might not survive' they don't deserve a chance?

pommedeterre · 07/04/2014 22:28

Because, as I wrote above, it seems to be taken for granted that a baby aborted at 24 would have definitely survived in pro life discussion on these types of thread.

Normally you're all about he nuance and complexity, non?

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 22:34

No one assumes it would definitely survive. Even babies born later than 24 weeks and up to term don't always survive.

twofingerstoGideon · 07/04/2014 22:35

Slightly off topic, but the Stephen Fry video Sabrina linked above is well worth a watch. He is right, IMO, when he says Catholics are absolutely obsessed with sex, the way they harp on about abstinence and go around banning contraception, insisting priests are celibate, etc., while covering up the rapes of children.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 22:45

I've seen it before - I do like Stephen Fry. I'm quite interested in reading some of the things that Chewbacca posted about earlier re Catholicism too.

Chewbacca, is there anything in particular that you would recommend?

confuddledDOTcom · 07/04/2014 22:48

Being pro-choice means I believe I have the choice to be pro-life for myself. I don't care two flying ones if other people think that being pro-choice thinks I can not say I would not have one myself!

I am also a Christian and believe that when Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through me" he meant it, but I believe others have the right to choose to follow other faiths and believe it's right for them. I would defend other people's rights to follow their own faith even if I don't believe in it. I believe that my rights end where someone else's start - I don't have a right to encroach on theirs.

I'm divorced, a lot of Christians told me how terrible I was and that I wouldn't be able to marry again, that God would always see me as married to my first husband. They're welcome to think that and stay married to an abuser if that's their choice but mine was to LTB which was my legal right to do.

I made a difficult choice in difficult circumstances, I would not make that decision lightly. I have had unprotected sex when I shouldn't have and I would not see MAP as right (for me) in those circumstances. I would not tell someone else that it is wrong for them to do so because it's not my body and not my choice. I knew another pregnancy would likely leave me more disabled and risked damaging my child but when I found out I was pregnant I decided abortion was not right. I now have a severely disabled child and am not in a position to care for my children on my own because of the damage to myself.

Should I have been forced to have an abortion because I'm pro-choice or should I have been allowed to make the choice I believe I have the right to?

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 22:57

confuddled, if you are pro-choice of course you can say that you wouldn't choose to have one yourself - plenty of people do, some on this thread. No one is saying that if you are pro-choie, you would be forced to have an abortion yourself. I'm not sure where you get that idea from. Why is it so important for you to call yourself pro-life anyway?

I'm not questioning whether your decision to take the MAP was difficult for you or not. I was just trying to figure out what your opinion actually is. You said that you think the MAP is abortion, you said that you have taken it and then you said that you don't agree with abortion for you. When I asked you to clarify you said that you had taken it for rape (which I was aware of from earlier) but you haven't clarified whether you think that the MAP isn't abortion if you take it in the case of rape. Just to be clear - do you think you have had an abortion because you took the MAP?

Dawndonnaagain · 07/04/2014 23:05

Okay, I'm actually starting to get more than a little concerned here. People have come up with various (real life) scenarios. This is followed by Bumbley questioning every aspect of it.
It's starting to scare me and I am taking my concerns to HQ.

twofingerstoGideon · 07/04/2014 23:06

Should I have been forced to have an abortion because I'm pro-choice or should I have been allowed to make the choice I believe I have the right to?

Good grief, confuddled! Of course you shouldn't have been 'forced' to have an abortion. Of course you're entitled to make your own choices. Your body, your life, your choice.

twofingerstoGideon · 07/04/2014 23:07

I have to say, I also think Bumbley is overstepping the mark by interrogating people who are posting about their own personal experiences. Let them tell us how much they want to tell us, eh? No need for the probing questions.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 23:09

Dawn, are you referring to my post to confuddled asking her to clarify some of her posts? She has said some conflicting things on the thread, I don't think it's wrong to ask for clarification - it happens a lot on other threads.

Even two fingers has picked up on some of her inconstancies previously.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 23:13

I'm not asking her 'probing questions' about why she took the MAP - she volunteered that information herself - earlier and just now. I am confused by her saying that she thinks the MAP is abortion and then says that she would not have an abortion herself even though she has taken the MAP. Given her recent post re being forced to have an abortion if she is pro-choice, I'm wondering if she actually understands what being pro-choice means.

People have asked me plenty of 'probing questions' on this thread about my opinions.I didn't realise that was 'concerning'

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 23:14

inconsistencies*

passmethewineplease · 07/04/2014 23:17

Take more than haemorrhoid cream to get rid of you bumble. Grin

I am glad women have the choice to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Its not perfect though as some terribly sad stories on here has proven.

I really wish cases like theassasins were different.

thebody · 07/04/2014 23:20

Hi bum still enjoying this thread I see.

That's a reason for me to bow out.

You see for you there's pages of yeah but no but yeah if you are British you will get that if not you won't.

For others there is real pain on this thread. Like babys life

Not sure you get that really do you? Or that you care.

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