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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 23:27

Figured I might as well do something useful while I'm up there, pass. :)

confuddledDOTcom · 07/04/2014 23:29

Yes, I know what prochoice means, it means I believe that people should choose for themselves but you are making out that I can not choose to be against abortion for myself because I am prochoice that's why I asked if I should have been forced into an abortion that many people would have taken in my situation.

Do I believe I had an abortion - actually yes I do think that there is a very good chance that I had conceived as a result of that rape and because I do believe in life from conception I do believe it was an abortion. Where does it fit with my beliefs? I still haven't figured that out, it is still something that hurts me very much to know I did but in the circumstances I was in I do not see my options and with hindsight things are even more complicated.

I would not use abortion as contraception though, I would not use MAP as contraception. I didn't even use abortion to avoid having a child I knew would be disabled.

You are asking probing questions, yes I have mentioned things but I didn't go into detail. This is obviously a difficult subject for anyone who brings in personal information so to be asking for further information is probing. How have you been "probed"? You haven't been told to post painful information about your past, you haven't shared details about your past. Maybe if you did people would be a little more sympathetic to you.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 07/04/2014 23:39

This has got to be one of the most appalling threads I have ever seen, and not because of the subject matter

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 23:45

"you are making out that I can not choose to be against abortion for myself because I am prochoice"

No, con fuddled, I'm not. I'm not sure where you get that idea from. I've just said again that of course you can be pro-choice and choose not to have an abortion yourself. There are people on this thread who have said just that. I'm not sure why you can't just be 'pro-choice' though - why are you trying to identify as pro-life as well? Again, being pro-choice doesn't mean that you have to have an abortion yourself so why the need to call yourself pro-life?

Thank you for clarifying your opinion re the MAP. I'm sure it was a difficult decision for you given your beliefs. You already know that I don't think the MAP is abortion so it's not like I'm trying to judge you or anything.

I'm not sure what question you have classified as 'probing'. Certainly nothing I asked is anything more 'probing' than what I have been asked re what my opinions are in relation to certain things. I certainly did not ask you for details about why you took the MAP or question those reasons when you gave them. I did not ask for the details that you gave. You told us that you took the MAP, you told us why you took it and you previously told us that you considered the MAP abortion. I just asked for clarification when you then posted that you didn't believe in abortion for you after saying that.

FWIW yes, I have previously posted painful information about my past and been asked questions about it too. I didn't do it so that I would get sympathy.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 00:50

If she sees your posts as probing, bum, then they are probing. Leave her alone ffs.

thebody · 08/04/2014 06:42

confuddled love just done engage. Several of us here think she/he is enjoying this thread just a bit too much.

Very unsavoury. You take care of yourself.

Ilovexmastime · 08/04/2014 06:45

Way back up the thread I said that the protesters were probably lacking in something, empathy perhaps?
I think that if Bumbley is the type of person you get at these so-called vigils then she is proving my point nicely.
I'm sorry Bumbley, I've never got personal on MN before but I'm shocked at how insensitive you've been on this thread.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 06:55

Sabrina, Fine, if those questions are 'probing' then I guess you (and others) don't have problems asking me 'probing' questions either. I love the double standards.

Thebody, I am 'enjoying' posting on this thread just as much as anyone else who has been posting here.

twofingerstoGideon · 08/04/2014 06:56

There's a massive difference between 'probing' a poster's opinions and 'probing' for further detail or explanation of someone's real, personal experience, don't you think?

Sabrina is right.

Bumbley Even two fingers has picked up on some of her inconstancies previously.

Okay... I've gone back over this thread and re-read all my posts. I can't see where I have done anything like this, and certainly not in response to posts where people are discussing their own, personal experiences of pregnancy/ termination/birth.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 07:06

twofingers, my mistable, it was Freudian who picked up on them earlier.

"'probing' for further detail or explanation of someone's real, personal experience"

I did not ask for any "detail or explanation" about her experience. I asked her to clarify her opinion.

Just going to repeat something that another poster identified yesterday and let you have a little think about it...

"It is plain that Bumbley and I do not share the same opinions, and she may to always have responded sensitively, but the way she has been targeted on here tonight, with abuse, swearing and nastiness, would have been classed as bullying, if she was a poster with a more popular viewpoint. If she was pro-choice and everyone having a go at her was pro-life, this thread would have gone pfft a long time ago."

twofingerstoGideon · 08/04/2014 07:46

I did not ask for any "detail or explanation" about her experience. I asked her to clarify her opinion.
Her opinion about something (the MAP) that directly related to her personal experience. Can't you tell the difference?

Incidentally, 'my mistake' is the sort of thing a politician says when an apology would be more apppropriate! (ie. it carries an admission of error without actually apologising...)

Why do I need to 'have a little think' about your last comment?

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 08:25

"It is plain that Bumbley and I do not share the same opinions, and she may to always have responded sensitively, but the way she has been targeted on here tonight, with abuse, swearing and nastiness, would have been classed as bullying, if she was a poster with a more popular viewpoint. If she was pro-choice and everyone having a go at her was pro-life, this thread would have gone pfft a long time ago."
You are in no possible way the victim here.
Hmm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 08:48

Bumbley - asking someone a question about their opinion, their 'academic' argument (like, are you religious? Are you catholic?) is completely different from the probing, extended questioning of someone who is relaying an obviously v painful, personal real life experience - as you have done to Baby and confuddled here.

Especially when you are not being supportive to them. Your posts are cruel and unfeeling - you've been told so by the posters concerned, and many, many others - and doing a little I'm so sorry for your loss post afterwards doesn't negate that.

thebody · 08/04/2014 08:55

Exactly Dawn and Sabrina

This isn't about having different opinions, that's of course life, this is nasty because one poster is probing deeply into personal issues and then not offering any imput or empathy but simply shrugging shoulders and offering bloody flowers.

This thread is deeply unpleasant because of that and not different opinions.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 09:01

Ilovexmastime Tue 08-Apr-14 06:45:50

Way back up the thread I said that the protesters were probably lacking in something, empathy perhaps?
I think that if Bumbley is the type of person you get at these so-called vigils then she is proving my point nicely.

This

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 09:14

Dawn, I'm not claiming to be a victim. That was someone else's opinion of what they have seen on this thread. I think it highlights the double standards. My posts are apparently rude/insensitive/inappropriate/'probing' but the similar posts that you and others direct at me are apparently acceptable.

Sabrina, I have not asked any questions of baby about her experience. Please do not start lying to make a point.

I also did not ask probing questions about confuddled's experience either. As for 'not being supportive' - read my last post to confuddled where I recognised that it must have been a difficult decision for her given her beliefs (not mine) because I don't even consider the MAP to be abortion (an opinion that confuddled has criticised me for).

You really are just looking for any excuse to have a go at me.

PlumProf · 08/04/2014 09:16

bumbley
"only if that cell is diploid and not haploid. Why?" - when the two haploid gametes fuse a new, genetically unique, zygote. The ovum on its own is not capable of life, neither is the sperm. As pointed out earlier, I tend to be more on the side of implantation rather than fertilisation (for many reasons) and embryos from IVF are 'at an earlier stage.'

I am trying to unpick why you choose implantation as your arbitrary starting date.

If your reasoning is "genetic uniqueness" , then surely you know that each sperm and egg is genetically unique? Yet you are not defending sperm? (I don't blame you - I wouldn't defend every sperm's right to life either, any more than I would defend each fertilised egg's right to life).

It is not because it is at implantation that the ball of cells is "capable of life" any more than a sperm is. Both, given the right conditions, can eventually become a human being but neither is independently capable, so I rule that out as your reasoning.

If your reasoning were Catholic (you say it is not), then it would be against contraception and PRO creating as much life as possible and so I expect you to have 10 children (I bet you don't have).

If your reasoning is (as you hinted at earlier) when the foetus has a functioning nervous system and circulatory system then that is a lot later than implantation.

I find interesting your "allowance" for destroying embryos in the course of IVF. That is very convenient for you if that is what you are having or have had (sorry if so). I can't see any other reason for the exception you make to your hardline views about fertilised eggs and I am afraid I suspect self interest. Can you not instead reconsider and realise that your position that every embryo needs defending to the point of ruining a woman's life is absurd? IMO an embryo can indeed be destroyed in good conscience in the course of trying to give someone a baby (IVF) or to save a woman other suffering (carrying an unwanted bay, or one that is destined to be very ill). It is not ideal, but it is the better of two options in either case.

Sorry if I am being unclear. Perhaps you can help me out? WHAT is your reason for picking implantation as a magic arbitrary date beyond which a woman is committed to being a living life support system to the extent that you take away her autonomy over her own body?

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 09:16

You too body - I haven't asked Baby any probing questions and you obviously didn't read my last post to her either. I have not 'shrugged my shoulders' about snytging either. Seriously, you're having to resort to lies now?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 09:22

Yeah right, bumbley. You just keep telling yourself that.

Just like these protesters tell themselves that they're doing good too. When their very presence there is an exercise in intimidation.

thebody · 08/04/2014 09:25

Bumbly you wilfully ignore babys pain because your beliefs are that it is something she has to endure.

You can't really argue with that can you?

Personally I have absolutely no opinion on what you deem right gut you and your body. I would totally support your choice.

However it really really pisses me off when people like you arnt happy with simply following you own beliefs but you feel the need to spread those and worse seek to control what other women to with their bodies.

We will never agree and that's fine.

However why do you feel the need to control my access to abortion if I wished one up to and until labour.

It's my body not yours.

I do see this is getting pointless but at least I now see what types of people shout outside clinics.

differentnameforthis · 08/04/2014 10:16

but maybe their conscience us clearer for trying to change the law

They are not trying to change the law, [disbelief that you think they are] they are trying to control women. If they wanted a law change, they would protest at parliament, not outside clinics.

PlumProf · 08/04/2014 10:20

Honeybadger and body You both put things much better than I do.

thebody · 08/04/2014 10:24

plum thought your post was excellent.

Ilovexmastime · 08/04/2014 10:39

"It is plain that Bumbley and I do not share the same opinions, and she may to always have responded sensitively, but the way she has been targeted on here tonight, with abuse, swearing and nastiness, would have been classed as bullying, if she was a poster with a more popular viewpoint."

The trouble is, there are so few posters posting in support of the 'vigil' holders that most replies in the ongoing debate are directed at Bumbley because she's the only one providing the alternative view to the majority on the thread. I don't think that she has been targeted as such.

"If she was pro-choice and everyone having a go at her was pro-life, this thread would have gone pfft a long time ago."

I don't believe this myself. MN has guidelines, if they are broken then the thread goes pfft. If not, it doesn't. I don't think MN would be biased towards pro-choice in the way that you are implying. A thread either breaks the guidelines or it doesn't.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 10:52

"If your reasoning is "genetic uniqueness" , then surely you know that each sperm and egg is genetically unique?"

The may be genetically unique but they are not capable of life on their own (as I said above). No, a sperm can not go on to develop into a genetically unique human by itself regardless of what conditions you put it in. And you think my argument is illogical? Hmm

and I am not defending every fertilised egg's right to life, I've already said that. As I said before, think implantation is arbitrary and illogical if you like. It's the point at which pregnancy starts. It's no more arbitrary than thinking that a foetus only gets some right to life (as long as it is healthy) at 24 weeks or that any more illogical than thinking that a foetus is part of the mother's body or that it isn't alive/doesn't have a body etc until it has been born or that it is ok to terminate a healthy foetus at term if it is the woman's choice to do so.

I don't know too many Catholics with 10 children and I don't know too many who are against contraception. I don't know too many Christians who refrained from having sex before marriage either. As someone pointed out earlier, plenty of religious people pick and choose what they like/agree with and leave the rest.

"If your reasoning is (as you hinted at earlier) when the foetus has a functioning nervous system and circulatory system then that is a lot later than implantation."

The clue is in the word foetus. That's what I was talking about in that post - not the point at which I think it becomes a life.

"Week 6
The embryo officially becomes a foetus . It is about the size of a baked bean and its spine and nervous system begin to form.
The foetus already has its own blood system and may be a different blood group from its mother. Blood vessels are forming in what will become the umbilical cord and tiny buds which will become limbs appear.

No, I have not had IVF (hmm, 'probing'?) I did say why - embryos from IVF are 'younger' that those that would implant. Consistent with my opinion about implantation and why I don't consider the MAP or an removal of an ectopic pregnancy abortion either.

"WHAT is your reason for picking implantation as a magic arbitrary date"

Implantation is the start of a pregnancy - not every fertilised egg will make it to that stage. To use your IVF example, do you think the woman is pregnant while she has embryos in a petri dish? Abortion is ending a pregnancy.

I will, thanks Sabrina, and you keep telling yourself that a foetus is part of a woman's body. Out of curiosity, when do you think the foetus gains its rights as a baby? Is it when it comes out of the uterus (either via the cervix or by caesarean)? Is the head enough or do you have to wait until the whole body is delivered? Or is it when the umbilical cord is cut? I'm interested to hear the views of the other posters who have said that they support the idea of abortion to term on this as well.

thebody, I haven't ignored it. I have acknowledged it several times (and had it thrown back at me). You have obviously missed my last post to her as well.

"However it really really pisses me off when people like you arnt happy with simply following you own beliefs but you feel the need to spread those.."

So if we should all just look out for ourselves, live our lives the way we think is right (based on our own moral standards) and don't worry about what anyone else does then do you not think we should have laws at all?