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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 10:58

Also, re Catholics having 10 children. There are 'natural family planning' methods that the church is not opposed to - they were discussed earlier.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 11:01

Ilovexmas, so is 'abuse, swearing and nastiness' more acceptable if it is directed at more than one person?

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 11:10

Thing is Bumbley everytime you ortray yourself as a victim, I go back through the whole damn thing and I find evidence of you being just as abusive. It may not be in language that is obvious, but it is rude and difficult all the same. Your little p/a comments, you're outright bullishness, all can be as rude as you are accusing others of being, but because (you think) you have couched in terms not openly aggressive, you think you have abused nobody. I can see where you have abused me, Suburban, The Body, Baby and Confuddled.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 11:12

Dawn, again, I'm not portraying myself as a victim. Are you?

SuburbanRhonda · 08/04/2014 11:14

Also, re Catholics having 10 children. There are 'natural family planning' methods that the church is not opposed to - they were discussed earlier.

Q: What do you call people who practise natural family planning?
A: Parents.

Both my siblings were conceived as a result of my parents practising NFP - hardly surprising the Catholic Church agrees with it.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 11:14

Bumbley, this is one of Baby's posts to you:

TheBabyFacedAssassin Sun 06-Apr-14 11:25:56
BUMBLEY the point these posters are trying to make is that I AM BEING FORCED TO CARRY THIS PREGNANCY TO TERM KNOWING THAT THE ACT OF GIVING BIRTH WILL KILL MY BABY

Clear enough?!

You told her not to shout Hmm

You have had a few deletions on this thread yourself - so don't try and make out you're the injured party.

Ilovexmastime · 08/04/2014 11:22

"Ilovexmas, so is 'abuse, swearing and nastiness' more acceptable if it is directed at more than one person?"

No. I was just pointing out that I don't think that you have been targeted. If there were more people posting with your point of view then the posters with opposing views would have had more people to reply to. Obvious really.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 11:26

Surburban, From the NHS

"If the instructions are properly followed, natural family planning methods can be up to 99% effective, depending on what methods are used. This means that one woman in 100 who use natural family planning will get pregnant in one year."

"If used correctly every time you have sex, male condoms are 98% effective. This means that two out of 100 women using male condoms as contraception will become pregnant in one year."

"Combined contraceptive pill: over 99% effective if taken correctly. Less than one woman in 100 will get pregnant in a year while taking the combined pill.
Progestogen-only pill: 99% effective if taken correctly. One woman in 100 will get pregnant in a year while taking the progestogen-only pill."

Selective Sabrina.My next line was " I'm very sorry that you're in such an awful situation."

Again, I'm not making myself out to be an injured party.

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 11:27

Dawn, again, I'm not portraying myself as a victim. Are you?
What a fabulously clear demonstration. Thank you.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 11:31

Oh dear Dawn - not sure how you think that is a demonstration of anything Confused

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 11:31

This means that one woman in 100 who use natural family planning will get pregnant in one year."

Well with approximately five million catholics in the uk, that's an awful lot of babies, even if you only take a figure of 10%.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 11:32

Sabrina,

Can you answer my question about when you think the foetus gains its rights as a baby?

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 11:33

Dawn, an awful lot of babies if you relied on the other forms of contraception too...

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 11:38

No bumbley - I will not answer your questions. You can jog on.

Here's another of Baby's posts to you:

TheBabyFacedAssassin Sat 05-Apr-14 20:52:42
Bumbley - words fail me. My posts have been directed at you and I guess I should have been blunt. I'll be blunt now though, you are totally full of shit. And FYI my baby doesn't have anencephaly. And I have NEVER said I am happy to go on with this pregnancy, because of people with beliefs such as yours I HAVE NO FUCKING CHOICE. A point which you have glossed over and over and over.

I'm out, I can't read this shit anymore. So much sense on this thread but you bumbley and your ignorant, ridiculous views have incensed me.

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 11:38

Dawn, thankfully we have better and more easily available contraception than we did pre-1969.
Page 13.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 11:39

^ You don't think you upset her?

You don't think you've added to a woman's real-life trauma?

Shame on you - and all your praying vigil friends.

SuburbanRhonda · 08/04/2014 11:40

Thank you for your predictably pompous reply, bum.

When my parents were thinking of starting a family, family planning clinics were in their infancy. None of their Catholic friends talked about contraception as they had already been indoctrinated into thinking sex was dirty, something that was "done" to the woman by the man and not something that should be discussed, even between man and wife. How could they possibly know they were following the proper "instructions"? No-one had instructed them!

The NHS statistic is meaningless if it assumes everyone knows or knew what they were doing. The countless families in my primary school with a sibling in every year group was testament to that.

PlumProf · 08/04/2014 11:41

Bumbley
"The [sperm] may be genetically unique but they are not capable of life on their own (as I said above). No, a sperm can not go on to develop into a genetically unique human by itself regardless of what conditions you put it in. And you think my argument is illogical?"

^^
Neither can a fertilised blasocyte go on to develop into a human "by itself". That's the whole point!

Maybe we agree: life should be sacrosanct when it can develop "by itself" into a human being. That is usually at about 24 weeks gestation, I reckon. Agreed?

A sperm requires an egg and a womb, both from another person. A fertilised egg requires a womb, from another person. Both are genetically unique. Neither can develop independently of input from another person. They should be accorded equal status (the sperm and the fertilised egg, that is)

thebody · 08/04/2014 11:54

I think as I have said a again and again that I have a right over my body, that my rights are paramount and my health is to be taken as paramount over my babies until my baby is expelled from my womb.

I have that right and I belive every woman should have that right.

Is that clear enough for you as you asked, again.

You mention laws and that we need laws to protect us all.

You are dam right bumbly we need laws to protect the rights of women over their own lives/fertility/bodies from people who think like you.

thebody · 08/04/2014 11:57

On the natural family planning

Doesn't the catholic religion tell women to submit to their husbands??? Nothing mentioned about 'but not at certain times.'

Funny that.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 11:58

Sabrina, I know what baby wrote to me. Why are you avoiding the questions I asked? I wonder what the response to me would have been if I told people to 'jog on' when they asked me questions. More double standards.

I also recognised that my opinion upset her in one of my posts so you're selectively reading and misrepresenting.

Dawn, You could argue that it is probably easier to correctly use the other forms of contraception but if they are correctly use, their effectiveness is about the same.

"Thank you for your predictably pompous reply, bum."

Your response to my post about the availability of NFP - "Q: What do you call people who practise natural family planning?
A: Parents."

Q What do you call people who don't use any form of contraception correctly?
A: Parents.

No form of contraception is 100% effective. It doesn't make sense to be dismissive of one (because it happens to be favoured by Catholics) and not another.

Oh dear Plum. The blastocyst can go on to develop into a foetus by itself in the right environment. Sperm can not go on to develop into a foetus by itself regardless of what environment you put it in. Sorry, science is on my side on this one.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 12:02

Jog on bumbley.

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 12:06

Dawn, an awful lot of babies if you relied on the other forms of contraception too..

Dawn, thankfully we have better and more easily available contraception than we did pre-1969.
Page 13.

No form of contraception is 100% effective. It doesn't make sense to be dismissive of one (because it happens to be favoured by Catholics) and not another.

Spot the inconsistencies.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 12:06

"You mention laws and that we need laws to protect us all. " I'm glad you agree. I just wonder how that ties in with the idea that people should just 'follow their own beliefs' and not 'spread those'.

When you say the baby has rights when it is expelled from your womb - when do you think those rights kick in? When the head is delivered? When the whole body has been delivered? When the umbilical cord is cut? When does it become 'separate' from the woman?

SuburbanRhonda · 08/04/2014 12:09

Not sure why you repeated the joke I posted about NFP, but thanks for that. I'm a bit worried you didn't realise it was a joke, though.

The point about NFP and why I singled it out is because (a) you gave NFP as an example of a form of contraception the Catholic Church approves of and (b) it was the only method most Catholic parents were brave enough to use in the 1960s, because the church did not support the use of other methods.

The point about not using other methods properly resulting in contraception is a bit Confused. NFP was the only method that came with no clear instructions, except to put up with it as a good Catholic if it resulted in pregnancy.