To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

[Menolly]

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

That's different, but there are people who will change their mind because their boyfriend dumps them. And that has got to be wrong.

Chewbacca - your choice of language suggests that women make these choices frivolously. Are you saying that a woman who believed herself to be in a long term relationship but whose partner 'dumps' her when discovering she's pregnant should be forced to continue with the pregnancy regardless of whether she feels able to cope? Because that's what it looks like you're saying, which isn't exactly pro-choice (as you claim to be).

Bumbley
"Give birth to a sperm or an egg? Really?"

^^

Of course you don't give birth to a sperm or an egg any more than you give birth to a zygote, a blastocyte or even an embryo yet you are contending that all of those have sanctity of life.

You are happy to put a single cell (the fertilised ovum) above a woman's mental or physical health and heartfelt wishes, but only if that cell is diploid and not haploid. Why? Logically, it should not be until the proto-life is a viable foetus with, as you yourself said earlier, a circulatory and nervous system, that there should exist an autonomous right to life, possibly equal to the rights of the mother (although I don't go quite that far, personally).

Incidentally, are you against IVF on the basis that some embryos are destroyed or do you only guard your diploid cell if it is implanted in a woman. And yes, some of those embryos are deliberately destroyed (after a time limit) and their destruction is not any kind of "side effect".

Your position is not only immoral, it is also illogical.

the women's rights and contraception thing has reasons behind it that are really respectful to women
So how about in third world countries? Are they respectful to women there? In those places that they teach against contraception, in Zambia where they tell women that condoms do not prevent the spread of HIV and AIDS. In third world countries where they preach against contraception and abortion but allow those babies to be born and then die of starvation or water borne diseases? How is that respectful to women in any way whatsoever, because in my book it's church sanctioned murder.

"Now you're deciding where people can pray"

There is praying for somebody and praying at somebody.

I don't think God hears you better because you are praying outside a Marie Stopes clinic or because you are holding a candle or a rosary.

On the other hand, if you are making a spectacle of praying to send a message to people who are either non-believers or who share a different point of view, you aren't really praying, you are trying to send a message.

You then have to ask whether you are using the most appropriate way to communicate a message, or whether you just enjoy antagonising people. If the message is "There are alternatives to having an abortion", you need to go out and organise those alternatives. If your message is "God doesn't like abortion", you are onto a bit of a loser if your target doesn't believe in God.

Japanese, you believe that you 'give birth' to eggs and sperm too? Oh dear.

Come on, Bumbley, you can do better than that.

That wasn't the point being made, and you know it. I am a bit behind the times as I've just got in from work, cooked dinner and done bedtime. Unlike you, I'm unable to put my life on hold to post unrelentingly on abortion-related threads.

I see Plum has quite neatly explained why your totally arbitrary start point for life is illogical, so it saves me the effort.

Problem is Japanese I'm not sure she can. All her arguments are flawed and illogical and she is unbelievably obfuscatory when asked to provide empirical evidence or to even answer a direct question.

YANBU - such a hard choice to make without that.

Yes people do have a right to protest but do it outside Westminster not outside of the abortion clinic.

If people are protesting about the timescale on abortions they are probably causing people to postpone their abortion to a later date if they are standing outside the clinic.

However in some mainland catholic European countries you can have anti abortion catholics performing your abortion on you in a less than sympathetic manner. What fun.

I am VERY uneasy with the discussion on reasons going on. A woman can have an abortion for whatever reason she chooses and we do not have to agree with her. End of. No justification necessary.

This is separate to the 24 week debate in my mind by the way which I feel pro lifers use to cloud any discussions on reasons/justifications.

Now you're deciding where people can pray

Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Pomme - about no justification necessary. The law doesn't agree with you.

Twofingers - And to the PP who asked whether I'm suggesting that some women make the decision frivolously.........yep, a small minority of women do. I have met some of them.

And I was talking about the concept of abortions up to term for non-medical reasons when I mentioned women who may want to abort at 38 weeks because of reasons such as their partner dumping them. Women like this do exist, as I have mentioned in a previous post.

Should they be forced to continue the pregnancy at that late stage.....absolutely! What's the difference between having an abortion at 38 weeks, and having your baby at 38 weeks then killing it? A baby can sustain life by itself at such a late stage.

I find the idea of being able to abort for non-medical reasons at such a late stage abhorrent. If that makes me non-pro-choice then so be it. I would rather be non pro-choice in your mind, than a monster in my own.

If you don't want your baby at such a late stage, then consider adoption. One of my friends has just had a very prem baby (born 32 weeks). She is now 37 weeks and home. The idea that my friend could abort her baby up to term for non-medical reasons makes both of us want to puke.

I am falling about early abortions not late, but thank you for proving my point so nicely chew.

Reason can be anything up to 12 weeks and that is very right.

For early abortions I think that we should be glad that there us a frivolous choice. Much better than people being forced into parenthood. For late abortions then an induction should be available with the woman fully informed of the consequences at that stage and given all support possible to continue until term.

Yes there's dozens of women getting to 35 weeks and thinking you know what fuck this malarkey let's have an abortion!

Don't be so fucking ridiculous.

Falling = talking

Chew, you really are talking nonsense.

this is still going on then?

i did start reading the comments since i last posted but gave up eventually and scanned.

to be SO invested in wanting to force your will onto other people is insane. loving the 'misandry' business.

again to the christians - reclaim your faith. the real 'counter protest' to vigils like this needs to come from you. otherwise you are allowing them to present your faith as one that wants to humiliate,shame, hurt and abuse women at a vulnerable time and who place their pharisee like obsession with laws over and above basic love, decency, acceptance and allowing judgement to be the province of god.

who better to call bullshit on this using of your spiritual leaders name in such blasphemous ways that are so 'anti-christ' in nature and intent than other christians?

and before you say others are trying to force their will on you bum - they're not.

no one is going to make you have an abortion, perform an abortion or give anyone a round of applause for having one.

no one is encroaching on your right to not believe it and not partake in it. you are left complete dominion over your decisions as it should be. you don't have the right to try to take dominion over others though.

you seem to be saying throughout this thread without actually spelling it out that you are christian and your views aren't based on religious beliefs.

therefore your level of concern comes from where? and your determination and conviction that your view is RIGHT and should be enforced comes from where? when we are willing to see another person like baby be sacrificed to our principles, as in their suffering and need coming second to a concept or opinion, there is generally some pretty entrenched and fundamental oompf to our need to defend that principle. as in if you're going to prefer seeing human beings in pain and suffering and trapped in a nightmare they don't want to be in it's either sadism OR that you believe that the alternative is an evil far, far worse.

in this case the alternative to baby baby aborting is a (i'm sorry baby) mammal being born that is incompatible with life, which if it doesn't immediately die will be in utter abject pain that will endure until it is released into death. what is it about the latter scenario that you are so invested in that you would refuse baby the right to an abortion and this fetus having a quick end to it's suffering? you know if it isn't a to the core belief in god, the sanctity of life and the devil devouring our souls for allowing this 'evil' then where is the energy and force you have invested in this coming from?

I've never heard of a woman having a late abortion because she suddenly couldn't be bothered anymore...

sorry i meant to say you seem to be saying you are NOT christian.

As ever honeyBadger puts it in a nut shell.

oh and sheer pragmatics - these alleged devil women who see abortion as contraception and do it over and over - what do you think happens if you stop giving them abortions? do you think they stop having sex? do you think they suddenly become capable of thinking rationally and responsibly enough to use contraception reliably? or do they just get pregnant and not be allowed an abortion?

and then what happens? do they say oh i don't want this baby at all but seeing as i've got to i will stop drinking, taking drugs, having sex, living chaotically etc for the baby's sake? i will suddenly manage to stand up to my pimp/trafficker/abusive partner and not be made to fuck men for a tenner whilst high on crack or get kicked around by my abuser 'for the baby's sake' OR does it then become necessary to incarcerate them? make it illegal for them to drink? illegal for them to fall down or throw themselves down a flight of stairs? illegal for them to stick a knitting needle inside themselves? illegal for them to seek out the services of some grubby backstreet provider?

do you want women dying in back street clinics? do you want more children born with fas and drug addiction? do you want 9 month pregnant prostituted women having themselves and their fetus' infected with HIV on the streets or will you avoid that by locking up women when pregnant?

these aren't extremist views these are the logical extensions of your views. these are the grubby real world contexts that things exist in.

Menolly I'm just coming in here to thank you for being so honest about what must have been an absolutely horrific situation for you. Your son is so lucky to have you.

For what it's worth, YANBU in thinking that there vigils are not helpful. It's difficult enough for any woman who is unsure about how to proceed to go and get advice and help without a demo outside the clinic of people who are judging them and making an already difficult situation worse. I personally think these vigils are abusive, and shouldn't be allowed to be set up anywhere they are likely to prevent access to clinics.

The problem comes really with the difference in belief system.

I believe that women should always be in charge of what happens to their body.

Some people believe a woman should have control until they have decided that her having that control makes them puke.

Still others have decided that, for whatever reason, a woman should not have any control from an earlier time in the gestation of a foetus.

Abortion as contraception might not be an ideal way of going about things, but then again, forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy just because she's reached some arbitrary number of abortions is also not ideal. Nor is forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy if her circumstances radically change in the last few weeks of a pregnancy.

Women should, as adults with bodily autonomy, be able to have abortion on demand, instead of having to convince 2 doctors that she should be allowed to.

On the point about whether or not the Affordable Care Act debate has any bearing on the hideously misogynistic views of some people who oppose contraception being included in health care plans, I'll just copy and paste some of the names Sandra Fluke was called on Facebook and Twitter... party favor, slutty ho, cum dumpster, cum guzzling gutter whore.... and MY views are extreme????

Plum - from your original post " every single egg within you and every single sperm in your DH is genetically unique with human DNA. Following your logic, do they not all deserve a chance? You should be trying to give live birth to as many of them as possible. "

You have obviously phrased this badly if you were not intending to suggest that you give birth to eggs and sperm.

"only if that cell is diploid and not haploid. Why?" - when the two haploid gametes fuse a new, genetically unique, zygote. The ovum on its own is not capable of life, neither is the sperm. As pointed out earlier, I tend to be more on the side of implantation rather than fertilisation (for many reasons) and embryos from IVF are 'at an earlier stage.'

You can think it's illogical if you like. I don't think it's any more illogical than setting an arbitrary value for when a foetus has some right to life (24 weeks) or considering a foetus to be part of the mother's body or considering that it doesn't have a body until it is born or any number of the other arguments that pro-choicers come out with to justify their opinions.

Japanese ^see above. (My life isn't 'on hold' btw - I'm just very good at multitasking :) )

slug, not sure why you're quoting bible verses at me. For those of you who have a problem with them praying - Do you object to Muslims praying publicly?

Chewbacca - "I find the idea of being able to abort for non-medical reasons at such a late stage abhorrent. If that makes me non-pro-choice then so be it. I would rather be non pro-choice in your mind, than a monster in my own."

I may have to climb up your ass again for this last post. :)

the body - "Yes there's dozens of women getting to 35 weeks and thinking you know what fuck this malarkey let's have an abortion!"

Well they can't, can they? It's illegal in the UK. Thinking that someone wouldn't do something isn't good enough. If that was the case then we wouldn't need to have any laws at all. We'd just trust everyone to do the 'right' thing.

TheHoney
You obviously missed my post to baby in your 'scanning' as well.

As for all your questions about where non-religious principles for being pro-life come from - do some googling. There is plenty of information out there. The number of atheist and agnostic pro-lifers is growing all the time.

"I've never heard of a woman having a late abortion because she suddenly couldn't be bothered anymore..."

Because it's illegal in the UK. Although they do happen in other countries. How do you think Kermit Gosnell made his money in the US?