Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 00:56

Are you catholic, bumbley?

I'm pretty sure you are.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 00:57

sabrina, "What' wrong with the foetus not being part of you?

Nothing ..."

Then why did you say you would be offended by it? - "I'd have been mightily offended if you put it to me."

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 00:58

Grin @ chewbacca - oh, is that what the lumpy bits were? Wink

ChewbaccasSister · 07/04/2014 01:00

Sabrina- you ask Bumbley if she's a Catholic in the same way you might ask someone if they are anti-Semitic or racist or (heaven forbid) pro- hunting!

You might not agree with her but even I am getting a bit perturbed about it. Is it like the Masons or something?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:00

Well - because you're arguing it. Yes, as a pregnant woman, I would be offended by it - because I would be the woman that was huge, heavy, uncomfortable, heartburny etc etc due to pregnancy.

But as an academic argument, it doesn't affect the abortion argument either way. The woman's right to choose over her bodily autonomy is paramount.

Can you confirm whether you're catholic or not?

ChewbaccasSister · 07/04/2014 01:01

Grin @ Bumbley

passmethewineplease · 07/04/2014 01:02

not a lot tbh aside from location of said baby. it is a difficult thing to think about in all honesty.

I didn't see your post about the protests bumble, can be easy to miss bits though given there's over 800 posts though.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:12

Yeah - sorry chew, I don't see catholics in a very good light. See my previous posts: little things like women's equality, contraception, magdelene laundries, cover up of paedophile priests, wealth of the church while their flock are in poverty - kind of bad in my eyes. Reasons not in order of importance.

bumbleymummy · 07/04/2014 01:15

"I would be offended by it - because I would be the woman that was huge, heavy, uncomfortable, heartburny etc etc due to pregnancy."

but why would you be offended by whether or not that was because the foetus was inside you or part of you? Why would it actually matter? Unless it is (and I may have read this wrong) simply because I'm the one arguing it. i.e.. you wouldn't be offended if it came from someone else.

her bodily autonomy. Her body, not the foetus' body.

I'm with Chewbacca here - getting slightly perturbed about why you are so obsessed with the Catholic-pro-life link when you've been told so many times that you don't have to be pro-life to be pro-choice. Do you usuallt go around asking what religion people are? Confused

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:19

And I forgot homophobia in my list against the catholic church.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:21

The catholic church is the reason abortion is still illegal in Ireland, bumbley. That has a direct affect on the life of a poster on this thread. That is beyond appalling.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:22

And the foetus is in her body, bumbley - so she has control over it.

ChewbaccasSister · 07/04/2014 01:22

Yeah, they really knew how to sell themselves, eh? But that's about the people who worked for the church being awful. It doesn't mean that ALL their teachings are/were. I used to think the same as you but I have done some more reading up and while the Magdelene laundries, peodophiles, greed of church were terrible, the women's rights and contraception thing has reasons behind it that are really respectful to women.

I've gone from thinking they hated women to thinking its not quite as clear cut.

I kind of think of it like if I had a greedy, corrupt, peadophilic maths teacher, it would mean he was a bastard BUT it wouldn't mean the maths he taught was bollocks.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:25

Oh bloody hell, chew. Respectful to women? Only as long as they're in heterosexual, married, relationships. IE. owned by men.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:26

Hey bumbley - where were the Helpers of God's Precious Infants when the paedophile priests were raping precious children? Do they stand vigil outside the churches where that happened? Outside the courtrooms where they were convicted (the few that were)? Their victims are serving a true life sentence. Pray for the lives of the living, the suffering, if they must pray uninvited and publicly.

ChewbaccasSister · 07/04/2014 01:34

Well my mum is gay and in a civil partnership. We've found that the Catholics we know are more live and let live than say Baptists.

And I am married, but I am not owned (my other half would piss himself at that!).

Seriously, look up the contraception stuff online. It's really interesting. They advocate proper natural family planning with temp charting/ mucus testing which is actually 99% effective. 2/3 of women having abortions were on contraception which failed.......if they had used NFP as well/instead, they probably wouldn't have got pregnant because they would have known their own fertility markers. It an also be used to help GET pregnant too. And until 1930 NO Christians were allowed contraception, then only Anglicans in limited circumstances.

There was loads about it I didn't know....it's really interesting.

ChewbaccasSister · 07/04/2014 01:35

And most peodophiles commit crimes within their own families. Don't see widespread hatred for the family as an institution.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:42

Do me a favour, chew. The catholic church covered it all up. They actually moved priests around, to cover it up, enabling them to abuse more children. That doesn't happen in families -which we are kind of stuck with unless you want to live in a strange dystopian world.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:43

Actually, cover ups do happen in families, but that doesn't make it ok in institutions that set themselves up as a moral authority.

ChewbaccasSister · 07/04/2014 01:47

The fact that they covered it up was awful. They should have prosecuted to lot of them (including Pope Benedict IMO), I still think that those are the people within the church that were horrific. Does it necessarily mean that ALL the doctrine they taught is rubbish as a result?

I guess I'm saying that as an institution, to say it is flawed is a huge understatement. But I don't think the beliefs behind the religion are all bad, which I used to think.

PoshPenny · 07/04/2014 01:48

OP if you are still following your thread... no, YANBU. I had the bad fortune to have to accompany someone to one of these places quite recently and run the gauntlet of what were mainly idealistic young men standing outside in the pouring rain with their rosary beads, telling the anxious visitors that they "would pray for them" and give them pro life leaflets. Well it took me all my strength not to tell them to fuck off or push them hard. who the hell do they think they are? there was a real mix of people in there, many were couples, and I don't think a single one of them didn't have very mixed feelings about the extremely difficult decision they had made to be there that day. hateful hateful sanctimonious fuckers every one of them outside that building. I'm knocking 50 and have a bit of life experience behind me, not the case with the predominantly young women who were the clients that day and probably every day.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 01:50

I'm not talking about private beliefs, I'm talking about people subscribing to and endorsing an institution that has done the above ^ I wonder how they can - and how it can dictate a whole country's abortion laws that damage women.

ChewbaccasSister · 07/04/2014 01:53

I agree it shouldn't influence law. We should be secular with religion being a private thing.

BUT, much as I know all the horrid background of the church, (whispers) I like Pope Francis. I can't help it. It's since he's talked about giving away the church's wealth. He just seems.......nice. I am shallow, I know.

Really do have to go to sleep now, though. Night night Smile

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 02:01

I couldn't pick Pope Francis out of a line up. Has he apologised for 2000 years worth of subjugation of women? For all the people that have died of AIDS in Africa and elsewhere because condoms aren't allowed? You know, including mothers, that have left orphans behind them?

For Savita and the others? OH, I could go on, and on, and on. And on. For shame.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/04/2014 02:01

Poshpenny - totally agree.