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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
thebody · 06/04/2014 19:45

CaptChaos spot on.

confuddledDOTcom · 06/04/2014 19:46

Let's just say that women who have abortions do feel emotional and physical pain. So a mother who has a much wanted but incompatible with life baby turns up face the emotional and physical pain of the judgemental protesters, then has to deal with the physical and emotional pain of the abortion. Or they could convince her and she has to deal with the emotional and physical pain of going through pregnancy that Baby is dealing with right now.

Or the mother who has to deal with the emotional and physical pain of giving up a child. Or the mother who has to deal with it when she keeps a child that's one too many and that of her family.

It's probably rarely an easy decision but life isn't made of easy decisions.

VampyreofTimeandMemory · 06/04/2014 19:46

thank-you, I appreciate it :)

fwiw, I doubt any woman relishes the idea of having an abortion. as others have said, the consequences of continuing an unwanted pregnancy could be much worse.

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 19:47

Blackacats, you have no need to 'tone down your approach'. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and to express it. Some posters would do well to remember that theirs isn't the only opinion that can be expressed on this thread.

VampyreofTimeandMemory · 06/04/2014 19:47

(thank-you to all who have offered kind words, I should have said)

confuddledDOTcom · 06/04/2014 19:49

Baby's situation is more akin to removing life support than to killing a disabled child.

thebody · 06/04/2014 19:50

Oh ok I have to restrain myself here but you do make it difficult bum don't you.

The fact that abortion can cause emotional pain to a woman and obviously it bloody does is not an argument to fucking ban it!!!! You really don't make sense.

No one goes skipping in to have a termination listen to the pain in this thread but listen to the reality of life

It's an option for women and it has to be held as a fundamental right.

thebody · 06/04/2014 19:54

bumbly I assumed that Blackcats may have not read the whole thread and consequently be unaware of the inadvertent pain her post might have inflicted.

However obviously as you didn't consider babys feelings I suppose you wouldn't see that.

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 19:56

"death of a baby in utero." This is not abortion.

"it isn't a person, it is a collection of body parts which are sustained by it's host. "

It's not like you have a random extra toe and a couple of fingers growing inside your uterus Hmm

It is a genetically unique, human foetus with its own organs, circulatory system. nervous system etc. (and in many cases, it is capable of surviving outside its 'host')

confuddledDOTcom · 06/04/2014 20:01

You'll be telling us next that hospitals don't call a miscarriage an abortion either.

Yes, I know they're not listed in the statistics, but what the hospitals call things and what we wish to call things are different.

As an aside, I'm thinking of taking my doulaing to support women who are having an abortion. Would anyone who's gone through it have been interested?

thebody · 06/04/2014 20:02

You just done answer the questions do you bumbly.

Life for you must be very simple and straightforward.

No nasty decisions to make, no dreadful situations or dilemmas just straight black and white choices.

You must live in a lovely bubble.

Please though stay there and the heck out of other women's more complicated lives aye.

thebody · 06/04/2014 20:04

confuddled I have been very lucky and not had to face that but I imagine it would be a wonderful support to women.

PlumProf · 06/04/2014 20:09

Bumbley every single egg within you and every single sperm in your DH is genetically unique with human DNA. Following your logic, do they not all deserve a chance? You should be trying to give live birth to as many of them as possible.

Or is DNA only sacred after it has organs, a circulatory and nervous system? When is that?

You have just as arbitrary a cut-off date as everyone else so why not choose a more humane one (12 weeks or 24 weeks) in line with most right thinking people?

CaptChaos · 06/04/2014 20:13

Confuddled I think some women might really welcome a doula's approach during the time around abortion, especially maybe TFMR?

Blackcats you are, of course, entirely entitled to hold whatever opinion you like, even that I am barmy Smile

Vampyre I hope everything goes well for you.

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 20:21

confuddled, I don't think it is appropriate to talk about a specific person's circumstances (who may or may not be on the thread) but in general, no I would not say that an abortion is like removing life support. Abortion involves active termination of a life, removing life support does not.

the body, did you miss the fact that she said " unless the fetus has a terminal disability and incapable of life outside the womb. "?

"No nasty decisions to make, no dreadful situations or dilemmas just straight black and white choices.

You must live in a lovely bubble."

No actually, my life isn't like that. You have no idea about the things that I have experienced or am experiencing right now.

Alisvolatpropiis · 06/04/2014 20:26

You're a fine one to talk about not answering questions bumble

Never did explain how you think the foetus isn't a part of a woman's body.

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 20:27

Plum, the sperm has the DNA from the man, the egg has the DNA from the woman. When they fuse during fertilisation, they create a genetically distinct human being.

"You should be trying to give live birth to as many of them as possible."

Give birth to a sperm or an egg? Really? Hmm

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 20:28

You still haven't answered Ali.

JapaneseMargaret · 06/04/2014 20:28

Bumbley - you have been dismissive of baby.

You told her to stop shouting, and you inherently believe that she should give birth on your terms, rather than her own.

That is the very definition of dismissive.

And agree with Plum - your 'pro-life' cut off point for when life begins, is just as arbitrary.

Alisvolatpropiis · 06/04/2014 20:30

Neither have you bumble Hmm. But please do carry on evading questions you can't answer. I find it entertaining.

I don't believe I was arguing the foetus doesn't have a body. Merely that whilst in utero it is a part of the mother's body and therefore her choice is what is important.

TheBabyFacedAssassin · 06/04/2014 20:32

Vampyre, I will be thinking of you.

Bumbley, my unborn child is not 'disabled' as you so crassly keep repeating, he/she has a condition which is incompatible with life outside the womb. As a previous poster rightly stated I am it's life support. I would give anything to have a disabled child rather than be in this position.

What are your beliefs on life support Bumbley? Do you believe that a person who cannot survive on their own should be kept alive indefinitely by machines? How do you feel about turning off life support?

thebody · 06/04/2014 20:33

We'll that's true bumbly and I hope you are in a happy place.

I just usually assume they those people who are militant in their beliefs that they have a given right to tell others what they can do with their bodies are usually people without the deeper feelings or experiences of life.

I totally agree with the posters who support termination at the mothers request into late pregnancy.

I belive the mothers wishes always trump the foetus until the foetus is born.

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 20:45

Japanese, you believe that you 'give birth' to eggs and sperm too? Oh dear.

Alis, So you do think it has a body then? Ok, so how is this genetically unique body part of the mother's body exactly?

Thebaby, you haven't given many details about the baby so I'm sorry that 'disabled' isn't the right terminology for your situation specifically. I have actually usually been speaking in more general terms though.

As I said upthread to con fuddled (and I didn't speak about you specifically because I think that is inappropriate) I would not compare life support to having an abortion. One involves the active termination of a life, one does not. The difference between 'killing someone' and 'letting someone die' as it were. I am going to point out that I am answering your direct questions here in case someone accuses me of being insensitive again by telling you what my opinion is - you did ask.

"I just usually assume they those people who are militant in their beliefs that they have a given right to tell others what they can do with their bodies are usually people without the deeper feelings or experiences of life."

Not a good assumption to make. Quite often it is people's life experiences that form their strong opinions.

So, did you miss what blackcats had posted?

Alisvolatpropiis · 06/04/2014 20:46

bumble

I suggest to retake your biology GCSE love.

bumbleymummy · 06/04/2014 20:48

"The fact that abortion can cause emotional pain to a woman and obviously it bloody does is not an argument to fucking ban it!!!!"

I didn't say it was.