To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

[Menolly]

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

There is nothing 'peaceful' about shoving cameras into the faces of women entering clinics and then claiming that you're doing so 'for your own security'. They may not be shouting and banging drums (if that's your interpretation of 'peaceful' - not saying it is, before you jump on that) but they are being intentionally provocative by filming.

Perhaps one of the reasons you feel 'criticised' is down to your tendency to ascribe to people views they do not have and then spouting them all over the thread repeatedly. Obviously people will challenge you if they believe you're deliberately misrepresenting them.

Anyway, once again, this thread has shown posters overwhelmingingly support a woman's right to choose, which I find extremely heartening. How anyone can read posts like Baby's and still think it's acceptable to impose their will on someone in her situation beggars belief.

You may as well ask why US anti-abortion activists considered it morally acceptable to shoot dead a doctor who carried out abortions, while he was in church.

It still has no relevance to the OP.

I just think it's interesting that someone would suggest hitting a peaceful protestor because they don't agree with what they're doing/where they're doing it. Who is more in the wrong there? Peaceful protestor or person commuting assault?

The fact is no-one has committed assault. You do put the most extraordinary spin on things sometimes.

I agree twofingers, it is very heartening.

bum is doing a great job of making sure it stays that way on MN.

Interesting to see people supporting bullying behaviour and personal attacks and suggesting violence on a thread objecting to people having a peaceful protest.

If only they were peaceful protests. They aren't. They are bullying and intimidating women, some of whom are at very low ebbs, in a completely inappropriate place. You, and people who think like you, who want to remove women's bodily autonomy, should be 'peacefully' protesting outside parliament.

Luckily, most human beings see that women are allowed, in law, to choose what is inside their bodies.

That it is the law which dictates when a foetus 'magically' becomes a person, not pro-women's lifer's.

That your entire concern is with restricting women's choice and returning us all to a time where women died in order to make people like you feel better.

And, that you, and people like you, as you have amply demonstrated on this thread, don't actually care about the women you harass, or even the foetus' they carry. Allowing people like you to dictate when 'personhood' begins would be not only insane, but dangerous.

I believe wholeheartedly in peaceful protest. I have taken part in many, but peaceful protests are also respectful and mindful of others. Blocking pavements, publishing phone numbers and addresses and taking pictures of women who are using the many different services on offer within the clinics is neither respectful nor mindful of others. It is intimidation, and you know it.

Two fingers, the OP was about a Catgoluc prayer vigil. I don't think Catholics spend a lot of time banging drums at their prayer vigil. Do you think it's ok to threaten/commit acts of violence against people praying as a previous poster suggested?

Suburban, I certainly don't agree with them. I don't know anyone who would actually. MNers on these threads do a good job strengthening my opinion too.

"That it is the law which dictates when a foetus 'magically' becomes a person"

Well apparently they get rights when they reach 24 weeks. Women don't have the right to decide what's in their body after that.

"you, and people like you..., don't actually care about the women you harass, or even the foetus' they carry. "

False, as shown by the pro-life charities who work with women before and after their pregnancies so that they can keep their babies.

See, I could equally say that you that you and people like you don't care about a woman living with the regret of the abortion that she felt she had to have (for whatever reason) In fact, quite often when they are brought up on threads you get a load of posters saying ' well I didn't regret mine' etc - basically being dismissive of the people who did/do regret theirs.

pro life is a complete misnomer and we really should stop indulging them by using this detracting term.

basically you are pro choice or anti choice and that's that. the issue is whether you think women should be the ultimate control over what happens in and to their bodies or whether the state/church/anyone else should have the right to decide or to restrict their choices.

that's it.

'pro-life' is a deliberately emotive and obfuscating term designed to detract from the real issue that is you either believe women should have control over their bodies or not. that is the bottom line.

to be pro choice very obviously does not make you 'anti-life'.

also it was JESUS who gave guidance about where and how people should pray and he made it very clear that public ostentation was not what prayer was about and recommended people prayed in private to be sure their prayers were for god and not for their appearance. it amazes how much christians mangle the message they claim to follow.

another raised as a catholic here - i found the teachings of jesus and the example set by him in the NT intuitively true and inspiring to my sense of social justice, good conduct, compassion and intellect. the church though i found to be the antithesis of that intuitive understanding and the words and actions of jesus. even as a child it seemed abundantly clear that jesus and the church were incompatible and that the church more readily resembled the pharisees and hypocrites he was castigating.

i honestly wonder how the hell people live with the irony of that without massive cognitive dissonance.

Do you think it's ok to threaten/commit acts of violence against people praying as a previous poster suggested?
I think you are (deliberately and provocatively) comparing a situation which is happening - the protests - with a hypothetical situation - threatening/ committing acts of violence - which isn't actually happening and asking us if we think it's okay. Why would we want to engage in a debate with you on these terms? I am all too familiar with this tactic of yours now and will not go down that road.
Perhaps the reason why people say 'I didn't regret my abortion' is from a desire to shatter this myth that all terminations are traumatic and regretted. This does not necessarily mean they are 'dismissive' of other people's feelings/reactions, however much you would like to assert that is the case.

And, as you're so fond of asking people questions, bumbley:
Do you think it's okay for these 'peaceful protestors' to take photographs of the women using the clinics' services?
And I don't think you answered the question someone else posed upthread about whether you think it's okay for Baby to be forced to do something she clearly doesn't wish to do? (so sorry, Baby )

Well apparently they get rights when they reach 24 weeks. Women don't have the right to decide what's in their body after that.

Wrong. A foetus isn't a person in law until they are born alive. What you're talking about is the age of viability. It's different.

False, as shown by the pro-life charities who work with women before and after their pregnancies so that they can keep their babies.

Wrong. They don't. You know that's a fallacy. I know it's a fallacy. I used to work with these charities. They are only there until the baby is born, unless the woman decides to adopt.

See, I could equally say that you that you and people like you don't care about a woman living with the regret of the abortion that she felt she had to have (for whatever reason) In fact, quite often when they are brought up on threads you get a load of posters saying ' well I didn't regret mine' etc - basically being dismissive of the people who did/do regret theirs.

I have never seen anyone be dismissive of the pain that other women have felt as a result of their abortions. Saying that you haven't regretted a surgical procedure isn't being dismissive. Saying that you haven't regretted a surgical procedure and that therefore you shouldn't regret your similar one would be. I know you won't see the difference, but it's there. I care deeply about women, both those who feel regret and those who, due to people like you being in power in various states, are forced to go through with unwanted or nonviable pregnancies, no matter the risks, no matter the pain. Women who regret choices they have made are one thing, women who have those choices removed from them are quite another.

Try again.

TheHoney, that has been said before. Pro-choice is a misnomer too. (Well, for most people)

"it amazes how much christians mangle the message they claim to follow."

Not just in relation to prayer but that's a whole other thread!

Twofingers, I just pointed out that someone was threatening violence against peaceful protestors and people barely batted an eye. A bit strange IMO. I'm pretty sure if this was a thread about a man threatening violence towards a woman you would take it more seriously. More double standards.

No one has said all women regret their abortions. some do. When anyone mentions that on a thread it rapidly gets swept under the carpet by lots of posters saying 'I didn't regret mine'

You see, I never said that no woman ever regrets her abortion. I'm sure some do. It's not me being dismissive of women's pain. It's you, and people like you.

When anyone mentions that on a thread it rapidly gets swept under the carpet by lots of posters saying 'I didn't regret mine'

I have never, ever seen this happen on MN. Can you link?

also when talking about the women who suffer with regret please do acknowledge the complexity of the cause of their suffering.

for a start it's known that of the women who suffer afterwards many identify a factor of coercion - of feeling they had no choice. i remember reading a study about this years back and feeling coerced into an abortion was a big indicator for anguish afterwards unsurprisingly.

the other factor to take in is that that suffering may well be caused by religious upbringing that has conditioned the woman to feel guilt and pain or by the very existence of these 'campaigners' who distribute hideous emotive literature and images to try to evoke the very guilt and shame that they then call proof that abortion hurts women with a big movement to induce a climate of shame, guilt and self loathing around abortion it is hardly surprising that some women experience that.

if you have a climate around you inducing disgust, shame and a sense of being doomed and fallen around homosexuality i'm sure the incidence of homosexuality causing depression and suffering go up too!

if you're told that having sex is dirty and bad and shameful throughout your childhood clearly you wrestle with issues around sex later.

there is so much selection and willful ignorance of factors and causes in these notions.

pro choice is NOT a misnomer. you either are you are aren't. you may find it difficult, distasteful, feel angst about late term abortions etc but essentially you have to conclude that it HAS to be up to the woman because the alternative is too hideous. that's pro choice.

pro choice does not mean you necessarily 'like' abortion, would ever have one yourself or agree with all aspects of it - it simply means you cannot countenance a world in which anyone else can force a woman to have a child she does not want to carry.

"Do you think it's okay for these 'peaceful protestors' to take photographs of the women using the clinics' services?"

No. Although if they were being threatened/attacked by people like the poster earlier I can see why they would want to have them.

Re baby, I did address that (indirectly) in my post about what I believe. I think life starts before birth therefore in the same way as you think that a baby who is born disabled has the right not to be killed, I think a disabled foetus has a right not to be killed.

Capt, at 24 weeks they have the right not to be killed apparently and the woman loses the right to remove it from her body (except for medical reasons).

"I used to work with these charities. They are only there until the baby is born, unless the woman decides to adopt."

link to life charity again they provide housing for women and babies.

You may not have seen it but it happens. Someone mentions someone who has regretted an abortion and it gets followed by lots of posters saying they didn't regret theirs.

Twofingers, I just pointed out that someone was threatening violence against peaceful protestors and people barely batted an eye. A bit strange IMO. I'm pretty sure if this was a thread about a man threatening violence towards a woman you would take it more seriously. More double standards.

Okay, let me clear this up for you. No, I don't support or condone violence. I do, however, think shoving a camera in the face of someone who doesn't want it there is a violent act.
If a woman posted on here that her husband was threatening violence I would be shocked, sympathetic, (ie. would 'take it seriously) as I would believe she was describing something that actually happened. But, if someone wrote, for example, 'I felt like punching my boss in the face today' I would take that as a metaphorical statement, although it's not something I would ever say myself and is the type of language I have pulled my DD up on.

Has that answered your question or would you like me to elaborate further?

incidentally i've had an abortion i regretted and suffered from. i was young, i felt under immense pressure, it was handled badly and in quite a draconian locked ward virtually in the basement of a hospital and i was massively traumatised and suffered with ptsd like problems for a long time after and only really healed from it when i was able to properly grieve without guilt for a miscarriage i experienced years later and was able to process my grief from that earlier loss.

i'm still pro choice. my case does not stand as evidence that abortion is harmful. it certainly stands for saying abortions should be handled properly and it certainly stands for saying that imposing a very dogmatic and unprocessed version of catholicism onto a child's mind can cause lasting damage and if we take it back a generation without getting into too much detail it stands to say that it's a bad idea to send little girls to jesuit boarding schools in the himalayas

it doesn't say abortion is wrong. it says people are complex and abortion can be very painful and difficult especially where a girl has been brought up being told she is evil and dirty and unlovable and with a very dogmatic version of RC shoved down her throat and used to support the emotional abuse. in those circumstances (and many others like it/different to it) certainly an abortion can be the match in the tinderbox. however for very many healthy people not raised with such a timebomb it is a choice they make for rational reasons and even if they feel sad that the factors meant they were unable to welcome that pregnancy at that time they remain sure they did the right thing.

I would have thought many women regret being in a position where they felt the be choice to make is having an abortion rather than having the abortion itself, so of course for many there is regret

no one gets themselves pregnant so they can have a termination ( in a few cases this may have happened but I think we are then talking about women who are very unwell)

Although if they were being threatened/attacked by people like the poster earlier I can see why they would want to have them.

Has someone on here actually claimed to have physically attacked a protestor? I missed that.

oh and i'm not offended by people saying 'i don't regret it'. i'm pleased for them that they managed to handle it emotionally and didn't have the kind of issues i had to work through due to my conditioning.

there are lots of things i regret in life - it doesn't mean i think they should be banned so that i couldn't have done them and would have avoided regret ffs.

Twofingers, I can point it out for you the next time - not going to go trailing threads. I know it happens because it was one of my first experiences of abortion threads on here. I was talking about a family friend who regrets hers nearly 50 years later and not one person acknowledge it - they just all jumped in with their posts about how they didn't regret theirs. It's as if they're afraid to recognise that for some people abortion wasn't the best 'choice.' Even you just jumped in saying its a myth that all women regret abortuon when I hadn't said that all.

HB, I agree that women often feel they have no choice when it comes to abortion.

Re pro-choice. Many people who call themselves pro-choice do not support the idea of abortuon to term. For them it is a misnomer because they do not support a woman's right to choose unconditionally.

They provide short term housing. They then abandon the women they have championed.

Being dismissive of people's pain is wrong. Being dismissive of women regretting their choices is wrong. Being dismissive of a woman's pain when she has no choices is also wrong. So, by your own reckoning, you are the same as those women you have pointed out.

The fact that a woman cannot choose to abort after 24 weeks doesn't make the foetus a person in law. Being born does. Personhood in law is not the same as viability. Hope you understand the difference now. Until a foetus is a person, ie has been born, it has no rights in law. What happens at 24 weeks gestation is not that the foetus gains rights, but that the woman loses them.

Bumbley Re baby, I did address that (indirectly) in my post about what I believe. I think life starts before birth therefore in the same way as you think that a baby who is born disabled has the right not to be killed, I think a disabled foetus has a right not to be killed.
So I think that means yes, you think the mother should be forced to carry to term. Can't you just say that plainly?

i didn't say women often feel they have no choice. most women are conscious it is a choice but the best choice they feel they can make.