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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 17:51

thebody, another cross post or I would have added you to my last post. I was making a point to an anti-choicer. I am pro-choice.

I don't know how many times in the threads I have to keep defending that I am pro-choice. I have the number of my local clinic open as I live 100 yards from it and planning to call them Monday to see if there's anything I can do to help during Lent. Do I need to do anything else to get my pro-choice card or shall I just keep fighting both sides?

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:52

Loonvan spot on with your last paragraph.

Control over women's bodies.

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:52

Loonvan spot on with your last paragraph.

Control over women's bodies.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 17:52

Okay, I'm with you, Alis!

Confuddled, sorry, I didn't see your latest post where you say you don't see it as murder. It's just that you did use that word upthread so I was finding it hard to understand your position.

AfricanExport · 05/04/2014 17:55

They are bullies and that is all. They hide behind their 'Christianity' but true Christians are taught not to judge. I certainly was in my Catholic catechism. so perhaps they should go away and read their scriptures or admit to being sanctimonious bullying self righteousness pricks.

Matthew 7:1-5 ESV / 338 helpful votes

â??Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, â??Let me take the speck out of your eye,â?? when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:56

Confuddled yes do apologise too. X posts.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 17:56

Saskia, no, that was to thebody.

twofingers, It was on another thread recently where it was actually pro-choicers pointed out that the current laws are disabilist. They're not just my views, or the views of pro-lifers. I'm pretty sure I've only talked about the disabilist thing on this thread and the last one a couple of weeks ago. It was the fact that pro-choicers thought the laws were disabilist that made me curious about the views of other pro-choicers.

Loonvan, why keep going on about the Catholic church? There are plenty of Christian churches that just preach about abstinence instead of contraception - why not single them out?

The posts about 37 weeks were for the genuine 'pro-choicers' on this thread who have said that they support a woman's right to choose to abort a healthy pregnancy to term for whatever reason. (you can abort for disabilities up to term in the UK)

the body, I hadn't posted anything offensive. Dawn asked me not to post because I was pro-life. I'm glad that you disagree with her.

confuddled, you said that you were pro-life earlier (for yourself - pro-choice for others) then you said you used the MAP and now you're saying that the MAP is abortion. So you're saying that you had an abortion (as far as you're concerned) but you still think you're pro-life? Why do you want to think of yourself as pro-life? Do you think there's something wrong with identifying as pro-choice?

Alis, at a certain point, the foetus does not need the woman to survive.

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 17:56

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ABORTION IS MURDER!

I was making a point!

Yes, I believe in life from conception.

Yes, personally I don't think I could - I probably should have last time and now I live with the consequences.

Yes, I believe abortion should be legal.

Yes, I believe everyone should have the right to abortion if they choose.

No I do not believe that someone who chooses an arbitrary date as when life starts should be allowed to tell someone else their arbitrary date is wrong.

I made the point that I believe life starts earlier than bum does so, if I was a nasty horrible person I could say the same thing she does that she believes in aborting a life. But I'm not that nasty horrible person I believe people should be allowed to make moral decisions on their own.

Apparantly, by the sounds of this thread, as long as the moral decision isn't being a pro-choice Christian!

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 17:56

Okay, I'm with you, Alis.

Confuddled, sorry, I didn't see your latest post where you clearly say you don't view abortion as committing murder. I was finding it hard to understand your position because you did use that word upthread.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 17:57

Just reiterating again that it's not just Catholics (or even necessarily religious people) who are against abortion.

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 17:58

That was to Loon and anyone else who is missing the point and I'm ignoring bum because I need to get dressed, get dinner finished and be out in an hour and my hair is still wet.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 17:59

Bumbley, I keep going on about the Catholic Church because the thread was originally about a Catholic group who were going to be protesting outside an abortion clinic.

And there aren't any other Christian Churches who argue that all artificial contraception is intrinsically evil, even within marriage.

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 18:00

Sorry Loon, I feel like I'm headbutting the kbd Grin I do apologise for being ranty.

I did use that word because I was trying to make the point about arbitrary dates where before then it's OK but after it's killing a life.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 18:02

Confuddled - sorry to be nit-picking but your exact words, to bum, were:

"I didn't say you saw it as murder, I said I do".

So I apologize again for not reading your later rebuttal of this - we actually x-posted - but I'm not sure I'm entirely to blame for being confused.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 18:03

Shit, x-posted again! Sorry!

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 18:05

Surburban, it seemed as if you were suggesting that his life may not have been as worthwhile because he struggled. Perhaps I was mistaken, but that is how it came across which was why I asked you if you felt the same about children/adults who become disabled during their lives - if their parents/carers should have the right to terminate their lives because they don't want to see them suffering. I know you will say that you don't think like that. I'm just wondering why it's ok to make the decision to end a life in one situation but not another.

TheBabyFacedAssassin · 05/04/2014 18:09

I've read the updated comments on the thread since I last posted. I feel sick at some particular posters' attitudes and sheer ignorance.
Also, please remember that here in Northern Ireland abortion is still essentially outlawed after 12 weeks. Thanks to a pro-lifer at the helm of the medical service here women are being denied terminations for medical reasons which would happen as a routine on the mainland. And these medical reasons are only diagnosed at the 20 week scan. I am one of those women and it is horrific. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. By giving birth to my child I will be effectively ending its life. My baby is only surviving presently because I am it's lungs and am keeping it alive. And I still have 12 weeks of this hell to go through. As I have asked before, do the pro-lifers think of that? Where does this case fall on your skewed spectrum???

SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 18:09

That's one heck of an extrapolation from my very clear post, bum Confused

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 18:10

con fuddled, but (most) pro-choicers do that too. Their 'arbitrary date' is currently 24 weeks in the UK.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 18:13

It musn't have been as clear as you thought then Surburban! It seemed a strange thing to bring up his quality of life when all I did was mention him in response to someone who said anencephaly is incompatible with life. He was very much loved and his family said he smiled and laughed and responded to them.

PlumProf · 05/04/2014 18:16

Menolly I admire you very much. Your life choices have been tough, and through it all you have kept your perspective, your humanity and your empathy for others facing tough choices. You must have been very very strong 10 years ago and are right to recognise that not everybody would have been able to make the choice you were brave enough to make, for instance if they had had no family support.

Your posts are reasoned and compassionate.

I am so sorry you and your child have to live opposite people noisily bullying vulnerable women as they access medical services. I am not religious but I respect your commitment to your Catholic faith, looking beyond mantras and instead at the compassion shown by Jesus as an example for how the religious should live (cp judging young girls and women who are in crisis). I don't know what you can do about it though....

girlsyearapart · 05/04/2014 18:17

Sorry haven't read the whole thread I'm afraid..

I was collecting my 4 year old niece from nursery one lunchtime & there was a huge group protesting outside one of the local abortion clinics.

They were in a very busy area with lots of passing traffic on the road and walking.

The placards had graphic photos of aborted foetuses and dead babies on. Right at childs eye level.

How can they see that as the right way to go about things??

I called the local police station when I got home but they said they had moved on. Also told me as it was a peaceful protest they couldn't have done anything anyway..

AfricanExport · 05/04/2014 18:26

Bumble.

Please define life for me... Or living for that matter..

You see. I have a cousin. He is now 38 years old. His mom had German Measles whilst pregnant. A very very Catholic family.

So my cousin does not even have the mental age of a newborn. He has been in and out of homes for most of his life from around age 8. His mom is now old. His father is dead. His siblings are somewhat bitter as the have never taken priority ever because my aunt felt guilty for what happened to my cousin.

So are these pro lifers going to step in now and care for him. Any of these people willing to go and feed, clothe him and wipe his bum and change his nappy for the next x number of years? Because that is the reality of your pro life stance.

I am sorry and it's harsh to say but that family would be in a far better place today of my aunt had a choice and was not going to be lumbered with retribution.

Do you think my cousin has had a life. Do you think he lives in any way shape or form. lying in a shitty nappy, rubbing his now enormous ear with the back if his hand for 38 years?

You see I can't see how anyone can call that living.

AfricanExport · 05/04/2014 18:31

Just to confirm my cousin does not battle with life. There is no life. His only actions are automated bodily functions and reflex actions. That is all.

thebody · 05/04/2014 18:44

Could we just boil down the whole argument to this then?

A pregnant woman has total and absolute rights over her body until she pushes out a baby.

Then the baby has the absolute right to life and care.