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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 05/04/2014 17:21

Huh? Are you commenting on my repost of somebody else's post?

Anyhoo - it would be great if there were no unwanted pregnancies, but that is not going to happen any time soon, so we better deal with reality. And the reality is that abortion needs to be safe and legal.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 17:22

Feel free to post Bumbley but only if you are able to use facts, that means those supported by empirical evidence, and if you can stop using logical fallacies and being passive aggressive.
You don't actually seem able to do any of those things though.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 17:23

Thebody, because of the many surveys that have been done to show that is the case.

Dawn, thankfully we have better and more easily available contraception than we did pre-1969.

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:24

Personally I couldn't give a crap who posts. You are entitled to your opinion until you and your fellow believers try to foist them in RL onto people like me or my dds or any other pregnant woman who hasn't asked you to.

I respect your right to choose never to terminate as long as you respect others rights to terminate and to keep your Beak out of their private business.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 17:24

Dawn, perhaps you need to put the petty jibes aside too. Is there something in particular that you would like me to comment on?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 05/04/2014 17:25

"Also, the only difference I see between a baby born at 37 weeks and a 37 week old foetus is its location. What differences do you see that makes you think one's life is worth more than the other? "

Was this also aimed at me? If so why?

twofingerstoGideon · 05/04/2014 17:25

What a simplistic argument to say that a woman who aborts a fetus with disabilities is therefore 'disablist'.

I would imagine there would be several reasons why a woman might feel unable to give birth to a severely disabled child. Imagine they already had a disabled family member - could they cope with two? Imagine space was tight - could they accommodate everything a disabled child might need? Imagine they are homeless, bipolar, in a volatile relationship, imagine they simply feel unable to cope with that level of responsibility for the rest of their lives...

Why the hell would anyone need to justify themselves to someone like bumbley for making the decision to terminate FFS? I don't think I've ever read a thread about abortion on MN where she hasn't come and thrown the 'disablist' grenade into the discussion. We can see what you're doing there, bumbley.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 17:25

you could work towards preventing the unwanted pregnancies rather than just accepting them

What, like the Catholic Church does, by failing to educate students in its schools about the responsible use of contraception?

Why are you going on about 37 weeks, anyway? The abortion limit is 24 weeks in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 17:25

not a majority

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 17:26

"Personally I couldn't give a crap who posts. "

That's great thebody. So you don't agree with Dawn that I shouldn't post because my opinion may upset others?

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:26

No bumbly chatting to people in the street is not proof of an appetite to change the law.

It's not going to happen.

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:27

Offensive posts are not allowed on mumsnet so yes I agree with Dawn

If your posts aren't offensive or personal then that's fine.

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 17:28

As a Christian (yes I am, I'm not saying this to pose an argument, my grandfathers were both ministers, I've been a regular all my life, been speaking in church since I was 7) I believe in life from conception so I do see MAP as being abortion (not in all cases of course as if there isn't conception it hasn't done anything). I didn't say you saw it as murder, I said I do and I think you think it acceptable to murder a baby that is pre-implantation.

I don't understand why you decide on an arbitrary date as being when life starts but don't allow other's to do the same. I think the same of Catholics who say that it begins at implantation but no later and of Christians who say [I think it's 5 weeks and something days] but no later. Yes for me conception is life but I don't push that onto someone who says it's life when they can live it on their own or at implantation or 12 weeks or 20 weeks or 24 weeks or whenever. Any date any of us chooses is arbitrary until we have the science to prove it and then it will be another debate.

twofingerstoGideon · 05/04/2014 17:31

Dawn, thankfully we have better and more easily available contraception than we did pre-1969.

Yes, my DD was born as a result of contraceptive failure in 1996. Grin Shit happens.

Alisvolatpropiis · 05/04/2014 17:32

confuddled

Most people consider life to start once the foetus has been born because prior to that it relies on the mother to keep it alive. Cut off for being viable doesn't change the fact that if the mother dies, the foetus will die.

That is based on science not a wholly fictitious book.

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 17:36

Major X-post there. I'm not usually good at this, but did I just spot a no true Scotsman?

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:41

confuddled no not arbitrary at all really is it?

When my babies were fully pushed out of my body they were independent beings.

In my womb they relied on me.

I really don't see why your being a Christian matters to anyone else but you. Your beliefs are perfectly fine but they cannot be allowed to affect my or other women's lives if choices.

thebody · 05/04/2014 17:44

I really also think the Catholic Church isn't really the organisation I would choose to stick up for women and children's rights.

Laughable.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 17:46

Alis, I'm not sure you're right there with regards to when most people believe life starts. But it wouldn't matter anyway.

You can certainly be pro-choice while accepting that the foetus is a form of human life. Loads of moral philosophers are.

There are issues about whether it's human life per se that's intrinsically valuable, or whether other attributes, like consciousness / autonomy are more morally relevant to this issue.

And you can certainly argue that a woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps the right of the foetus to live in her body.

Even if you see it as a straightforward act of killing, there are plenty of cases where many of us would see killing as possibly justifiable - eg. in the case of self-defence.

I've read Christian arguments (not Catholic) that the foetus could be seen as akin to an unwitting aggressor in some cases - eg. when a woman has been raped.

And of course the Catholic Church, which is completely against any act of direct abortion, has sanctioned killing in war, in certain circumstances, & for much of its history also supported capital punishment.

I do wonder, as I said upthread, why killing of a foetus is seen as uniquely abhorrent in Catholicism. And I've always suspected that this is not just to do with their beliefs about the status of the foetus, but also about the Church's desire to control women's choices about their own bodies.

SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 17:49

Sorry, bum I went for some private time Wink. I can think much more clearly now.

I thought this would be obvious, but it clearly isn't, so - I mentioned the quality of life of Nickolas Coke because knowing the likely prognosis for a child born with anencephaly would be important information to have when deciding whether to continue with the pregnancy. Some people might say, no, I wouldn't want that for my child and others might say, yes I'm fine with that.

In your post you simply said he lived until the age of 3; that's clearly not the full picture.

Gonna answer mine now, are ya?

confuddledDOTcom · 05/04/2014 17:49

Alis, please don't argue with me like I'm on bum's side, I'm really not, I'm pro-choice. I personally choose when life starts based on my own feelings on it, not based on the Bible which doesn't give a definitive answer and in fact different groups have chosen different points based on different verses. I think they're reaching for a definitive answer to be totally honest.

There is no science about when life starts because it's not something measurable by science. How can we tell when what is inside becomes a life? I held my extreme prem in my arms from the moment her cord was cut until she died and then I held her some more. It made me wonder whether the person, the soul, the mind, whatever name people want to give to it was in my baby. Did she know or was she aware of anything. And if she was fully a person then does that mean other babies still not born yet are? I have had two extreme prems, one very prem, one prem and one early (I think I have all the terms right!) so I have thought about things like that. In some ways it made me think more against and in some ways more for.

Everything I posted before was to make a point to bum about trying to enforce your arbitrary dates on someone else. I do not believe that anyone murders their child by having an abortion and whilst decisions are made that I may not necessarily make (but at the same time I'm aware I am not in that position to actually say) they are legal decisions that should not be anything other.

Alisvolatpropiis · 05/04/2014 17:50

Loon

I meant life in the sense of autonomous life, should have been more clear.

I agree with what you say about the Catholic Church and the reasons behind it's dislike of abortions above almost all other things.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 17:51

confuddled, your views really don't sound very coherent.

Do you believe that life starts at conception, but is more like some of the situations I mention above than it is to murder?

Or do you really, honestly think it's murder & yet think murder is a matter of subjective belief - ie. it's only murder if I believe it is? Because that doesn't seem to make much sense.

Murder is a specific crime, clearly defined in & punishable by law. There are loads of ways in which a life can be ended without it being murder.

Alisvolatpropiis · 05/04/2014 17:51

Sorry Confuddled, I didn't read your post properly and was unduly rude.