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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:09

Ali, I wasn't saying you thought it was ok for a woman to make that choice, I was saying that you must think it's ok for a healthy foetus that could survive outside the mother to be killed simply because the woman doesn't want it any more. Bearing in mind that the woman is going to have to give birth regardless etc - you think it's ok for a doctor to give a lethal injection to that healthy foetus simply because the woman doesn't want it to be alive anymore? Realky? Think of the reality - not just the 'I support a woman's right to choose' argument.

LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 16:10

You object to someone describing an embryo / foetus as parasitic, bumbley - why is that? The foetus lives in the host - the mother - & derives nutrients from her, at her expense if necessary. Its existence is parasitic - that's just a fact, & it applies whether or not the foetus is wanted.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:12

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Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 16:12

Yeah Bumbly but there is a difference between your opinion and fact, and as I was pointing out the inconsistencies in your posting using the theory of logical fallacies, it makes them fact. Particularly as you then continued with the logical fallacies. Therefore, logically, you're arguments are invalid.
The reason I'm going to continue to use the sentence is to demonstrate how illogical your argument is, as well as demonstrating how selfish the pro life lobby are.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:13

Loonvan, because its not biologically correct. A parasite is a different species to the host.

gordyslovesheep · 05/04/2014 16:14

it's not disablist to say it none of your business why a woman chooses to terminate

it's fair misogynistic to think it's anything to do with YOU

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:15

"there is a difference between your opinion and fact"

Dawn, something else that you can apply to yourself.

Not even sure you know what your own point is anymore tbh.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 16:17

Two fingers, you must have missed the word 'if' - " If you would choose to abort a foetus for a disability when you would have otherwise kept it if it had been healthy then I think you are disabilist and value disabled lives less."
Again, tis bollocks. If you have three children with muscular dystrophy and don't want to watch yet another die before your eyes, choosing to abort is a reasonable option. But the point here is, in your eyes Bumbly not to consider people but to make them look bad. Not to be logical about an argument, but to make somebody look bad, and to make yourself look like a martyr. Not really working for you is it. Just as it hasn't on a million other threads. Try using a logical, scientific argument, oh hang on a minute, was this it: What about the people who are hurt and suffering from the idea of people having abortions?
Thought not.

twofingerstoGideon · 05/04/2014 16:17

Bumbley your wrote If you would choose to abort a foetus for a disability when you would have otherwise kept it if it had been healthy then I think you are disabilist and value disabled lives less."

Given that I was responding by saying what I personally would do and you were replying directly to that, your repeated use of the word you carries a very strong suggestion that you are ascribing those views to me. I would like you to apologise actually.

SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 16:17

Sorry, bum, I was off doing other things.

As I posted at 14:30:25, I can't answer your questions because you asked, "Do you feel that way about all disabled people" without making it clear what way.

And I ignored the second question because it had nothing to do with what I posted nor the thread in general.

Tbh with you, bum, once you start going on about "killing children" (i.e. murder), I feel disinclined to engage with you, and that's putting it politely Wink

Alisvolatpropiis · 05/04/2014 16:17

I understand what the reality is. I'm not an idiot.

I still don't think it's correct to force a woman to carry a foetus to term. For what? So it can be placed in the care system? So it can grow up potentially being treated like the unwanted child it is?

Yes those options are much better. I can see that now Hmm

Also, few abortions are carried out after the cut off point at which the foetus is considered sufficiently developed to survive outside of the mother (and it's not a certainty immediately after that point). Generally speaking the very late abortions are terminating a foetus because either it is going to die or the pregnancy is a risk to the mother's life.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:19

Dawn,

Yes, dear :)

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:20

Two fingers, I would ascribe those views to you if you made that decision. Hope that clears it up for you.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:21

Yes, surburban, much easier to disengage when the questions start to get uncomfortable.

thebody · 05/04/2014 16:22

I had an amino with dc4 because I was 36 and I did not want to give birth to a severely disabled child. I didn't want my existing children to feel they had to take on the responsibility after my death or to have to cope with this myself.

As an ex nurse I am fully aware of the complexities, lack of help and difficulties people with disabled children face as well as the joy.

I would most certainly have aborted in these circumstances.

That is not disabilist. That is my right to choose.

I am neither ashamed or proud of my views but they are mine to have and other people are perfectly entitled to theirs.

Obviously once a child is born all their needs deserve to be met whatever they are.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:25

Alis, but once it's born it's not ok to kill a baby/child even if it's unwanted and will grow up in care? Such irrational arguments. More falling back on the 'oh, but it never/rarely happens' anyway. I'm asking if you're ok with it actually happening. Clearly it makes you uncomfortable.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 16:25

Yes, surburban, much easier to disengage when the questions start to get uncomfortable.

Dawn,

Yes, dear

Just as Bumbly it's much easier to become rude and passive aggressive when you don't understand the arguments?

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 16:26

What about the people who are hurt and suffering from the idea of people having abortions?

Bumbly's earlier post.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:26

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LoonvanBoon · 05/04/2014 16:26

Brood parasitism can involve the same species, bumbley, so you're wrong there too.

But even if the word couldn't be applied according to the strictest scientific criteria, parasitism would still be by far the best analogy to describe the relationship between foetus & mother.

It's certainly a lot closer to reality than the idea that they are two separate individuals, both with bodily autonomy. The foetus patently does not have the latter.

bumbleymummy · 05/04/2014 16:28

Dawn "it's much easier to become rude and passive aggressive when you don't understand the arguments?"

Another one to apply to yourself! You are actually making me laugh now. All the things you are accusing me of doing, you are doing yourself. I can't wait to see the next one!

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 16:29

"That is not disabilist. That is my right to choose."

If that's what you have to tell yourself.
FACT
Bumbly. Enshrined in law, in fact.

SuburbanRhonda · 05/04/2014 16:30

Oh, no, you're quite wrong, bum, when I feel like disengaging is when someone thinks that throwing emotive language around (again, I have to use "killing children" as the most hackneyed example) is an acceptable alternative to reasoned argument. I'm guessing your response will be that the issue is an emotive one, so that calling abortion "killing children" is quite acceptable to you.

I don't feel uncomfortable with reading your personal views (kind of used to them by now) just a bit bored with the dull predictability of them.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/04/2014 16:31

The logical fallacy of tu quoque*
Avoiding having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - answering criticism with criticism.

gordyslovesheep · 05/04/2014 16:31

the disabilist argument doesn't wash at all - you are just trying to justify your point with distraction - I once had a prolife fuckwit tell me rapes women should 'carry their pregnancies as proof of the wrong done to them' and I was aiding rapists by helping them access information

it's bollox