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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Unfairness to childless women

488 replies

zeezeek · 31/03/2014 20:09

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

OP posts:
Lottapianos · 01/04/2014 14:05

'But what really annoys is people who make out that they are better people because they're parents. That they feel more, or care more, or some such rubbish'

Completely agree that this is rubbish. Being a parent does not automatically mean that you are kind or caring or empathetic or that you understand anything at all about children. Plenty of parents are none of these things.

I do agree with the OP in that having children, or at least wanting to have children, is still absolutely seen as the default for women. Some people still feel that women who don't have children and are happy about that fact are weirdos, unnatural, somehow not real women. This kind of offensive crap can take a running jump.

I work with young children and their parents and have done for quite a few years. I occasionally get asked if I have children (I don't) and I'm happy to say that about 80% of the responses I've had have been either positive or neutral. However, the negatives ones ('WHY???', 'oh you'll just get pregnant one day and then you'll have to get on with it', 'you'll change your mind, of course you will') have really stung, and still hurt now, years later. People reallly should be more sensitive, but then that's the case for many issues!

squizita · 01/04/2014 14:07

"Of course I feel empathy when I hear sad anecdotes about childless people, just as there are many sad stories about straight people or able bodied people or white people."

Yes, us recurrent miscarriers are so LUCKY by default! How LUCKY our babies died so we can be in the alpha group. Hmm If my leg didn't work, I would be classed disabled, if my stomach didn't work, I'd have a chronic illness. But if my blood/uterus doesn't work, I'm lucky ... woop woop I'm a white middle class banker. And to think I thought my chronic blood condition, fatigue, dead babies I've passed out from me and increased risk of strokes were disadvantages.

People want children. Hisotry is all about dynasty and having children. Indeed much of the prejudice against disabled and gay people stems from society being obsessed with marriage and reproduction of 'perfect' children (indirectly or directly).

I'm not suffering in spite of being lucky/childless, like a middle-class-white-man who happens to have a toothache. I am suffering because of it.

bonesarecoralmade · 01/04/2014 14:08

I have to admit, and I know this is very self-centred and I certainly never said this to anyone, that when my children were babies, I just did not see the problem when anyone else without children said they were tired. I mean working 40 hours straight - so what? I would gladly do that if I could spend 12 hours in bed at the end of it. I am not standing up for this attitude. I am just saying that with ebf small babies, the treadmill of never getting more than a few hours sleep, and never knowing when, and having no set knocking off time - people who were going to get some rest, some time, I just thought, what the fuck are you complaining about?

also - this doesn't apply to NHS workers or carers - but a lot of people who moan about working so terribly, terribly hard, or about how TAAAHHED they are, are just greedy people with big fat interesting well paid jobs, who are enjoying them and enjoying the salary from them and even enjoying moaning about them because it makes them feel important, so, well, fuck off.

I do think that to some extent (not to any extent that comes with material recognition, but socially) having children is a recognised source of hardship or discomfort and I was astonished when I was visibly pregnant and then visibly walking around with a tiny baby, how much love and support there is in the world for you. Yes some people are arseholes but there are many, many people who will jump out of a seat for you or, on many occasions, several people who simultaneously jumped out of bus seats and folded and stashed my buggy and tucked away my shopping and installed me on a seat with my baby on my lap and couldn't do enough for me. To feel propped up by society like this, when you are deranged with pain and fatigue, goes a long way to making you feel equal to your daily challenges. Being young and fit and invisibly mentally ill is to be very very unsupported in daily life and that is hard - I only realise how hard now I have been something that is socially recognised as requiring support

Pleasejustgo · 01/04/2014 14:08

Heisen

Weird comparison. Please elaborate.

StampyIsMyBoyfriend · 01/04/2014 14:08

I have one dc, after years of losses and heartache. Due to that, he will be our only child, so I get comments about having it easy, feeling guilty that he will be lonely etc etc.

I'm reasonably slim, so have no right to have 'fat' days.

We both work & have a mortgaged house, so have no right to moan about money, or lack of space, when people are waiting years for a council house...

It's all relative. Grow a thicker skin.

BoomBoomsCousin · 01/04/2014 14:13

I'm with you OP on not having a revelation about the meaning of life since having kids! And I certainly don't feel more important. My life was a heck of a lot easier before I had kids. Services were more accessible, interesting marketing was aimed at me, I could do a lot more of what I wanted without (generally mild, but still noticable) public censure and I wasn't the focus of the government's attempts to change societal norms. Doing things was also quite a lot cheaper. In fact I felt a lot more special single than I do as a parent, the world seemed to revolve around me to a greater extent!

I wasn't aware of when school holidays were so I have no idea if I tried to take time then - I certainly wasn't ever rebuffed over a holiday on the grounds I didn't have children. When childless I use to volunteer for Christmas shifts as parents would often ask if anyone was interested and I could see that as something that would mean far more to them than me, but there was never any pressure to do so. I had a much wider choice of roles than the mothers I knew went after as I didn't have to consider childcare when I was looking at different positions, probably meant there was less competition for the jobs I wanted and also that they didn't get the best candidates for those jobs. Now I have children (and am no longer in that line of work) I see that as very unfair for them, it just didn't occur to me at the time though.

The only way I was harmed by the child bearing masses as a single person was the assumption when I was in my early 30s that I'd want a child. I had a few comments about that and I think it hurt my job prospects for a while (ironically I didn't start thinking about children until I was out of work and 40).

SanctiMoanyArse · 01/04/2014 14:14

I think as someone lucky enough to have a husband who mucks in the kids, that I should try and be understanding of people lee lucky, maybe a mum is a single parent with no childcare, maybe her partner is in the armed forces.... it may mean she absolutely (or indeed he of course) can;t get childcare on certain holidays or whatever. Under universal credit they have no option but to take that work now, and a hefty dose of there but for the grace etc. is a useful thing.

Equally as someone not working right now I had kids over here for the day during the recent school strike.

Most people have ways in which their life is more challenging; by far the best option is just to pull together and try to be as understanding as we can of other's situations.

And not to think in stereotypes either. Said childless woman may be sole carer for her disabled parent or neighbour, parent may have family willing to muck in and help freely. If I was not working say Christmas Eve and my colleague was I might consider having the kids round for a trip to santa one year and swapping the next; make a tradition of it. Ease their load.

And you know, just do what we can to help everyone get by. It really is so much better that way.

GarlicAprilShowers · 01/04/2014 14:17

25% of women in the UK reach 45 without having children.
We are not an anomaly. One in four of us are childfree for life.
I don't like being treated - overtly or subtly - as some kind of freak.
Loved Miaow's long post above; thank you!

I want to raise my pet topic here (one of them Wink) - restructured working practices. All the hours/holiday/pay issues mentioned here arise from the fact that our work structure was invented in the Industrial Age, by men. Those men did not see childcare as work, or even relevant to anything much, as it was handled by some woman in the background. (The women doing the shitwork in factories brought their DC with them, if they had no other woman to stand in.)

Things that have changed:
Women & men do work of equal value, for equal pay & conditions.
Women have equal opportunities - but not equal outcomes.
Pregnancy & birth are accommodated by legal rights.
Women can choose whether to have children, when, and how many.
We have single mothers and single fathers.
More fathers are engaged with family life.
Childcare is no longer free, flexible, or on tap.
There is less economic advantage to closing the business for 15 hours a day.
More people work hours outside of 9-6.
Fewer people live round the corner from work.
Fewer jobs require physical presence at the workplace.

Things that haven't changed:
Women give birth; men don't.
Children have the same needs.
Society is geared around the 9-6 working day.
Society expects women to have children, and to be their main carer.
Workplaces expect physical presence, often needlessly.
Workplaces promote employees with high physical presence.

Obvious anachronisms:
Schools & doctors, etc, still operate to the 9-6 model.
Women take more child-related time off than men do.
Men get promoted more & paid more.

What I'd like to see is, firstly, more 21st-century-friendly working methods: much longer business hours, and much more flexibility. I'd like to see all workers taking more time off for 'life' reasons, irrespective of their caring responsibilities. An easy way to do this would be to allocate a certain amount of time - 20 days? - which employees have to use each year. The objective would be to normalise the existence of life outside the workplace. I'd like to see large businesses providing childcare at work, too. They have golf days, weekend 'conferences' at hotels, in-house gyms and medical centres, even spa days ... all designed to enhance the wellbeing of employees, and all assuming readily-available childcare. I want to see compulsory paternal leave. I'd like more businesses to take advantage of networking, and stop being obsessed with presenteeism. I want to see it taken for granted that men have to take someone to the doctor, too, and to go home when someone is ill.

Currently, we don't have equality between women & men, neither do we have it between people with & without children. I include the childfree because having children is a lifestyle choice these days (though not having them may not be chosen.) Folks without children may have other responsibilities or, if not, they still have lives and deserve to have that respected.

Pleasejustgo · 01/04/2014 14:19

Good post garlic

bonesarecoralmade · 01/04/2014 14:21

Garlic, what a great post.

This this this:

"I'd like to see all workers taking more time off for 'life' reasons"

bakingaddict · 01/04/2014 14:23

I think any childless person who is at the sharp end of bad management practices when it comes to holiday leave or other work issues should direct their ire at the managers who are responsible for creating an unfair system.

In order to get the best holiday deals parents have to book early so I booked all my main holiday leave for this year in Nov 2013. That doesn't make me a bad person or selfish to childless work colleagues just I need to get things sorted before all the best deal are gone.

In my workplace carer's leave is a source of contention. Parents are given a negative press if they take a carer's day and somehow we are made to feel that are milking our children's illness. IMO it is often working mums who are the most dis-advantaged in the workplace because we are just not seen as 'promotion material' but I wouldn't want to get into some kind of pissing contest about who has it the hardest and again I come back to my first statement.

Pleasejustgo · 01/04/2014 14:24

In fact excellent post, I'm all for working practices changing.

There is a shift towards a more flexible working practice with remote working an office pods etc but those practices are unfortunately few and far between and limited to only a few industries.

I like your point about balancing outside life though whether on has children or not.

squizita · 01/04/2014 14:27

"I don't like being treated - overtly or subtly - as some kind of freak."

It seems to be 'freak' or 'lucky/selfish' or 'nice in a privileged way like a pleasant member of the landed gentry' with some.

Lottapianos · 01/04/2014 14:30

'Due to that, he will be our only child, so I get comments about having it easy, feeling guilty that he will be lonely etc etc.'

I have a friend who has one son and she has also had comments about being 'selfish', how it's a shame for only children not to have siblings etc. She's actually happy with just one child but honestly, people need to show just a little bit of sensitivity and engage brain before opening mouth.

'Grow a thicker skin'

It's just not that simple Stampy - if it was, we would all do it!

GarlicAprilShowers · 01/04/2014 14:34

Thanks :)

There are moves in that direction, thank goodness, but as you say, Please, they're few & far between. They often have to be strongly policed, as well, since the Victorian mindset is so ingrained!

Lottapianos · 01/04/2014 14:35

'An easy way to do this would be to allocate a certain amount of time - 20 days? - which employees have to use each year'

Oh sign me up right now! Great post garlic

bigmouthstrikesagain · 01/04/2014 14:35

Not sure what the revelation is here OP - I agree that childfree/less people and women in particular may feel that they are either under pressure to procreate or asked to make sacrifices or feel they are given less consideration regarding leave or benefits etc.

But - people with children also feel that in regard to their lives and life choices. Feelings of 'hard-done-by-ness' (not a real word I know Grin) are common with most sectors of society. Few people are content with their lot and whether or not you believe they have basis for that feeling depends on your point of view sometimes.

Real exclusion and oppression does exist - economic disadvantage, racial prejudice, sexism. The social bias towards families and 'family life' is understandable. People are increasing living longer and living alone but they are difficult to categorise and manage so many different individuals and needs to be meet. The needs of a family with children - decent housing, child care and education provision, parks, etc etc. is easier for a government to cater for and appeal to. Even if they don't manage it to the satisfaction of the populace.

I was a child free adult until the age of thirty. Like most (teen parents excepted) I have experienced adult life with and without children, there are advantages and disadvantages with both. Judgement from society on my behaviour is something I never worried about until I had children. Now I do have 3 children and I often miss the freedom I had pre-children. Would have regretted not having/ or not being able to have children though - so I feel fortunate and blessed.

But I will have back problems for the rest of my life, I am poorer (financially) and more dependent on my dh as a result of being a parent. I know I will struggle getting back into paid work. I get no tax breaks - not even Child benefit anymore. So I don't feel particularly that i have a huge advantage over child free women I just have different disadvantages.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 01/04/2014 15:01

I was a child free adult until the age of thirty.Like most (teen parents excepted) I have experienced adult life with and without children,

but you get treated differently by people at different ages if you are a women without children.

almondcake · 01/04/2014 15:11

YAMFWOT, I am not equating the situation of homophobia with motherhood. I am saying that motherhood is a protected characteristic just as sexual orientation is, in both UK law and international human rights law. The situation for mothers (in terms of all manners of laws that have historically existed until recently about whether or not they could work, in what fields they could work, where they could go, who had a right to make decisions about their liberty etc. There are still women in institutions now in the UK who were put there in the fifties for being pregnant) is not entirely equivalent to being a mother, just as being gay is not entirely equivalent to being a person with autism. But all are protected characteristics.

Squizita, I am recurrent miscarrier and a mother. Of course there needs to be adequate research and medical care into reproductive health for women, and women with fertility issues are treated unequally, but miscarriage and infertility are not the same thing as being childless. Some childless women experience problems with infertility and some do not, just as some women with children do.

Both the state of being a childless woman and the state of being pregnant or a mother can be both choices and situations a person is forced into. The fact that motherhood is often not a choice is a major global rights issue. There are still many women in the UK who are forced into pregnancy and/or motherhood when they don't want that.

The situation with carers of elderly parents is one of a need for increased rights for carers of people who are sick and/or disabled. That is not a situation unique or massively over-represented among childless women compared to mothers.

The OP was very simple. She thought that childless women (not an individual childless woman) were being treated unfairly, and then compared that to her experiences of mothers. She also compared her experience to parents, but this thread has mainly been about comparing mothers and childless women. If we are asked who is being treated unfairly between two groups (not individuals) then we look for markers of collective power and disadvantage between the two groups.

Economic: who earns more per hour relative to their skills, experience and education. Mothers or childless women? Relative to their numbers in society, who is more likely to be living in poverty? Mothers or childless women? Who is more likely to be sacked because they do or do not have children?

Political: who is more likely to be under-represented in politics, the senior civil service, the legal profession and the police?

Cultural: out of the top films released in a year, are the collective lead female characters (Katniss Everdeen, Pepper Potts, Natasha Romanoff etc) likely to over or under represent the proportion of women who have children or those who do not? Are women who hold power in arts, music and the media likely to be over-representative of the numbers of mothers or the number of childless women? Who is more likely to have remain without adult company, and have their opportunities to engage in adult social experiences in general curtailed? Are there more social spaces where people in the company of children cannot enter or people not in the company of children?

Health: who is more or less likely to experience health problems, disability and illness as a consequence of their state - childless women or mothers?

If people honestly believe that childless women are, on balance, disadvantaged relative to mothers, then there should be a plan to restore that balance. The choice is then to reduce the advantages of mothers by taking money, resources, jobs, cultural focus, power and rights (maternity leave, childcare etc) away from mothers, or it is to increase the relative advantage of childless women by increasing their money, resources, jobs, cultural focus, power and rights relative to mothers.

If childless women are, on balance, advantaged relative to mothers, then they are not collectively being treated unfairly compared to mothers. There are situations where they may be treated unfairly as a consequence of being a woman where there childlessness is mentioned, just as many straight women are treated unfairly and aspects of their straightness is mentioned. But the causes of that are sexism, and the relative power of men. The cause is not that mothers or lesbians have too many rights or preferential treatment.

Guineapig99 · 01/04/2014 15:16

Have to say OP I've never experienced any of that either before or after kids - and it was assumed that I wouldn't be having any but did in the end.
I've never told someone without kids that they don't understand and I've never had it said to me. In my workplace everyone can have flexible working ( with a half decent reason) with or without kids, but like everywhere the harder or more you work the more you get on.
holidays are 1st come 1st serve too, as it should be.

Pleasejustgo · 01/04/2014 15:21

Almond cake

Virtual applause Wink

Guineapig99 · 01/04/2014 15:24

Garlic - I work some where that has adopted a lot of what you've said - and it makes a huge difference to everyone. We get told off ( well, have a "chat" ) about our work/life balance if we don't use up all our hols allowance. Somewhere, somehow along the line someone at the top decided happy employees were better than miserable, tired ones who resented each other and acted according. There are also a lot of women in senior posts and at 50/50 split on gender so maybe that helps.

almondcake · 01/04/2014 15:27

Garlic, mothers may or may not have responsibilities other than having children.

If somebody has young children, they need workplace rights to accommodate that.

If somebody is caring for a sick or disabled adult, they need workplace rights to accommodate that.

If somebody needs time off work for reasons other than caring responsibilities, they need workplace rights to accommodate that.

One individual can experience all three needs at the same time.

By arguing that everybody should have a blanket amount of 20 days off, you are effectively arguing that people who have caring responsibilities (either of children or adults) that they are going to use to care for somebody else, are not entitled to take 20 days off for other reasons. Do childless people have a greater need to take time off (say to study counselling for 20 days, to take part in a retreat or an important sporting event) that somebody with a disabled mother or a one year old child doesn't have?

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 01/04/2014 15:27

I missed ghettos ridiculous shite about st fanjo of parenting..which isnt relevant anyway.

I was quitting my job, funnily enough

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 01/04/2014 15:29

almond IMO you are setting up the wrong opponents: mothers are not largely disadvantaged due to childless women but patriarchy.