Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

I bet your DDs will be absolutely thrilled to hear that, when they are older. I'd recommend you never let on about that, if I were you.

Almond thanks for clarifying. Although your 2nd post doesn't so much explain your first as change elements of it.

You quote law and working disadvantages a lot.

But the crux you skirt around is that the social ideal for women 25+ is motherhood in almost all cultures.
Thus, glurge like "motherhood makes your purse empty but your heart full" (FB all over this weekend) damns all women: it's OK to limit mums, but if you have no children you are unnatural and 'empty hearted'.

I stand by what I said about your first post: it was not worded as clearly as your follow up. There is a difference between a childless woman and the 'lucky ones' in society. In some regards they are seen to have 'more' than mothers, in others 'less'. But you cannot say a sad childless 9not by choice) woman is like white/middle class man who is actually quite nice but has society at his beck and call. It simply doesn't work.

As for this but miscarriage and infertility are not the same thing as being childless - for some they are. And for some they are a symptom of a lifelong health issue, compounding the worry.

It's strange that this all apparently doesn't affect men. I've known people taken to the brink of suicide by being desperate to settle down and start a family but struggle to find it all, while constantly absorbing 'why aren't you married yet?' attitudes, often in the form of direct, rude interrogation. All the while, putting up with those paid exactly the same to do the same job doing half the antisocial element of it that they do (for the same level of pay enhancements) and struggling to get any form of emergency leave ever because children aren't involved. Of course this sort of thing is going to vary hugely from workplace to workplace, and naturally individual experiences differ massively. But to say that men all get away scot free in all of this isn't entirely fair. I've had staff come to me really having a hard time over these sorts of issues.

Squizita, yes I agree with you that being a childless woman is not the same as being a man. Childless women experience sexism and gender inequality to a huge extent and men to a much smaller extent.

There is indeed a social ideal of motherhood, but the social ideal of that has little to do with the actual experience of motherhood. The social ideal of motherhood is to be able to care for multiple children while making no economic, resource or time demands on wider society (excepting things like state education). That is clearly an absolutely impossible situation for mothers to exist in unless they are in a rare situation of having a high degree of wealth from some inherited wealth or similar.

I can see entirely that to be a childless woman (particularly if the woman did not want to be childless) and be told by societal messages that you are somehow lacking compared to a mother is a vile experience. I would support any law that gave protection against that, and I think it should be possible to modify or improve laws around gender as a protected characteristic to deal with that more effectively than it currently does.

It is absolutely the case that mothers have in some situations 'more' and in others 'less.' The same can be true of many groups of people. I have family members who get told this about their disabled parking badge, or the benefits of deaf culture, or their more interesting heritage and ethnic connection to a non-white country or the strength of shared bond in the lesbian community. And there are no doubt that these are in some ways having 'more' in a particular instance

But that doesn't change the fact that given across the entire range of measures of inequality, mothers are disadvantaged not just differently but more than childless women.

It is entirely possible to reduce both the number of women who are childless and want children, and to reduce the negative situations childless women face without a. attempting to give mothers relatively fewer rights compared to non mothers, b. throwing around negative stereotypes of mothers (she wasn't really committed to her job, she uses childcare commitments as an excuse, she didn't deserve a promotion because she didn't stay late, as if inadequate childcare was an individual failing not a systemic social problem etc, etc), c. claiming that childless women are mostly responsible for improvements in equality for women or d. pretending, minimising or trivialising that a wide range of serious human rights abuses specifically having an impact on mothers because they are mothers don't exist globally now and haven't existed in this country in the very recent past.

And all these ideas are being raised on this thread, and I cannot see that this actually addresses the issue of women without children at all, although I am not saying that you are the person doing this!

YAMFWOT, I am not setting the two groups up as opponents. I am responding to posters who are attempting to compare the relative situations of two different groups of women.

Of course it is the case that mothers are disadvantaged because of patriarchy. The fact that mothers experience greater disadvantage than non-mothers is caused by patriarchal systems, not by the efforts of desires of women who do not have children.

Childless women are not even (in wider society or on this thread) more likely to make negative stereotypes about mothers or argue for a reduction in rights for mothers than mothers themselves. The OP is a mother. Childless women haven't caused this situation. Anybody can have internalised misogyny, and mothers (like any other group about itself) who are privileged relative to other mothers will still sometimes use stereotypes around motherhood to separate their exceptional situation from all those other mothers who they think deserve poor treatment.

None of us have to have caused a situation of inequality or benefit from it to recognise that one exists. I don't think childless women benefit from the disadvantages of mothers, nor would childless women lose out in any way if the disadvantages of mothers ceased to exist. It isn't a zero sum game.

almond - i think you are correct, that looking at the bigger picture mothers are discriminated against more than childless women. mothers mainly in terms of money and power, childless women socially.

however childless women are discriminated against for something that even without the discrimination would cause many of them life long sadness.

surely its fine to acknowledge this - sometimes - without having to say that mothers suffer more discrimination.

Pleasejustgo - I just dont get the ohh its all so hard and difficult being a mother thing. Its really not, and its a damn sight easier than not having children when you really wish you could have them

the whole mothers are discriminated more is another fact that childless women appear to need to be told.

like we don't have a clue what its like to have children.

both things are correct. but I do wonder why mothers need to point these things out to childless women particularly those with no choice on the matter.

YAMWOT, absolutely. And I did, in my first post, start by saying that there was no need to be insensitive to individuals. Infertility, miscarriage, still birth, death of a child and unwanted childlessness are all hugely sensitive issues that deserve our sympathy, understanding, empathy and compassion.

And it is absolutely fine in many situations to talk about that without saying that mothers suffer more discrimination. Even in most threads about those topics, people (including myself) would not turn up and say, "but X group have it worse."

But I don't think it is fine in the context of this thread, where highly distressing personal anecdotes about childlessness are being responded to by posters who are then advocating the stereotyping of mothers, seeking to deny mothers rights relative to other people, or trivialising and minimising the major human rights abuses carried out against mothers because they are mothers.

YAMFWOT, I am talking about it because mothers globally and in the UK are still seeking improved rights, and to get improved rights you have to discuss the situation with the whole of society, not just the group seeking the rights?

this thread is 'Unfairness to childless women'.

so cannot even this thread be about childless women?

Heisen

I didn't say that. Having children can be unbelievably challenging and also quite devastating in some cases.

You're also not comparing like for like.

I was only factoring in I believe a case where someone actively chose not to have children

I did not make the thread about mothers and not about childless women. There were many, many threads being negative about mothers, including the OP, before I responded to them. From the OP:

'how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children...'

'I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.'

If the OP has been about how people were insensitive to women who had no children due to miscarriage or infertility, and how could we be more sensitive to them, without making out that mothers were making demands and expecting the world to revolve around them, then I wouldn't be having to point out that the world most certainly does not revolve around mothers, nor is society making some kind of huge allowance for them.

Almondcake - Your queries are easily dismissed by pointing out that your co-workers are NOT responsible for your children, parents, or desire to learn counselling. Truth. Live with it. I said I want to see fair & equal recognition that workers have lives, with fair & equal accommodations made. The reasons for this are manifold. Suffice to say, it alters perceptions in ways that 'allowances' for 'needs' do not. Workers don't get credit for not taking their holiday these days, they're seen as a dysfunctional saddo. Allocated 'life leave' should similarly promote this effect.

I disagree that parents (not just women) in our society find themselves disadvantaged by an unchosen predicament. A few suffer coercion, yes. That's a different problem and we do have laws about it, imperfectly applied as they may be. The issues being discussed here are, overwhelmingly, the results of choices. And of sexism.

Guineapig - you must work at Google or P&G I'm so happy to hear it's working!

I just dont agree at all pleasejustgo if you chose to have children then you expect everyone to care and always prioritise you. Its simple as that and the mums out there that do this make all other mums look pathetic imo (sn not included in that)

*dont!

Pardon? I honestly don't think you understand my posts or have me confused with someone else?

Just think its false your opinions on non mothers not having a clue and holidays

Non mother? Amazing.
I don't think you've read my posts...

Garlic, I am not asking for coworkers to be responsible for other people's children. I am also no more personally responsible for ensuring that a pregnant woman has time off for her appointments or to meet childcare demands than that a disabled person has time off to get to physiotherapy or that somebody has time to help a disabled husband. But my employer does, through employment law, and they have a responsibility to make sure that those people have working arrangements that fit their needs.

Employment law gives greater protection and adjustments to people who have greater needs. If you have fewer needs, then you do not get as much protection and adjustments. Those laws are different for different people to try and create equality of outcome. We don't create equality by saying, there's no mobility lift solely for wheelchair users, no toilets for disabled use only, no compassionate leave for the person with the spouse dying of cancer, no leave to give birth, no leave to pick up a sick child because to be fair to co-workers we must all be treated the same way and have exactly the same conditions.

Fair and equal accommodations are created from understanding that not all workers are in fair and equal situations in society, and the law meets their needs accordingly.

I am not going to expect 20 extra days off work just because some woman with a dying husband or a sick child had them on the grounds that I might have something going on. I don't actually have anything going on. That isn't equality.

You said non mothers dont have any idea what its like to parent but a lot do. It depends on your background and life. You stated tgat as a fact I was just saying I think your wrong.

Heisen

You have not read my posts. I repeat you've not read my posts.

Frustrating.

pleasedontgo - I can see why heisen does not like your posts.

Heisen hasn't read them all so I don't see how