Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

I don't have children - I always wanted them but it would have been wrong due to complex mental health issues.

I love children and try to be accommodating but at the end of the day I had no choice over my health problems. Having children is something that people do get a choice over.

Not having children in some cases is also a choice which was the main point of contention, women who actively chose not to have children mother bashing, and when this affects my life resulting in option limiting attitudes I take exception.

I sympathise with your situation.

I've never seen such polarization in real life. There are people who make insensitive comments who happen to have children and people who make insensitive comments who don't have children.

BTW Please, This ISN'T a fact. And it doesn't make sense. First clue about what?
"Fact women who haven't been pregnant or given birth don't have the first clue. Note please this is a fact a statement of truth."

Ok I should have said don't have the first clue about physically giving birth or the experience of being a parent. How is that untrue?

I've absolutely seen such polarization or I would never have commented.

Pleasejustgo What about adoptive/foster parents? They haven't been pregnant, nor have they given birth, but I reckon they have quite a few clues about how to be a parent...

I really don't get what you are trying to say.

If you haven't given birth you haven't got a clue about being a parent? - My friends who have adopted wouldn't agree.

If you haven't given birth you haven't got a clue about how hard life is?
Surely, you don't think that?

If you're not a parent, you don't know what its like being a parent?
Um, that is probably true, but its hardly revolutionary is it? I don't know about being a fire officer. Or a model.

Reginald

Yes and does the father of my children know what it's like to be a parent and he didn't go through child birth.

We were talking about situations were people actively choose not to have children.

I think you're misreading my posts...

John

No to your first two points

And yes to your third, if you read my posts I say exactly that further down the thread.

Yes and does the father of my children know what it's like to be a parent and he didn't go through child birth.

According to your statement, no, he doesn't "have a clue".

This went well!

I think two separate issues are being mixed up here. Being told "you don't understand because you don't/haven't..." is probably true but incredibly insensitive. That can justifiably be called as rude behaviour.

However, the rest is just about perception. Seeing a group you are not a part of achieve privileges you aren't getting can feel very unjust, but that group may feel exactly the same about another group they are not members of.

I'm a mother of two. I had DC later in life so know what it's like to be a "childless woman" (not that I ever considered myself in those terms). Up until that point, I honestly believed the war on sexual equality had been fought and pretty much won in the UK. Then I had DC and left my X and realised that, as a woman, caring for those children - with all the responsibilities for their education and wellbeing, their physical health, the sourcing of childcare and the juggling of my career within those constraints, was apparently more my responsibility because I was a woman. So yes, I do feel that parents (which in most cases still means mothers) deserve some special consideration because otherwise we're saying that no one responsible for children deserves to be taken seriously in the workplace. And that is going to hit women far more than men, including the ones who have chosen to remain childless because history has shown us that when you exclude the majority of a group based on a feature that all of that group possess even if they aren't displaying it (i.e. reproduction), it is the whole group that suffers.

I don't want women to be discriminated against regardless of their reproductive status. It should not be relevant to how they're viewed in either society or the workplace, just as it isn't for men. That is IMO actually the best way to stop the patronising pity sometimes aimed at those who choose not be childless.

No he isn't a women and hasn't given birth no no he's no idea what it feels like. Correct.

However he knows what it's like to e a parent even though he didn't give birth.

My god.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it

Yes, I've heard a lot of this too. And being expected to take on extra tasks, or at more unsocial hours in my job, because I apparently have no right to a "family life" as I have no children.

That wasn't a choice, but something that just happened.

What I find most irritating are the assumptions made - as others have said, that I'm selfish ect.

But what really annoys is people who make out that they are better people because they're parents. That they feel more, or care more, or some such rubbish.

YY dahlen (steps in to saw the day)

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Dahlen fantastic post. Thanks.

Typo in my post. That last bit should read who choose to be childless

But what really annoys is people who make out that they are better people because they're parents. That they feel more, or care more, or some such rubbish.

I completely agree that some parents are like this of course many arent

"And I'm with you on the 'you don't understand because you don't have children' type of nasty remark. Or the kind of remark which assumes that you have less sentiment, understanding, compassion or knowledge of life because you don't have children. Or that you are less complete or important as a person if you don't have children. All of these are hurtful, wrong and unkind."

I have been told (by a colleague) that I would be better at my (child care) job if I had kids because everyone is .... she knew I was mid way through tests to see if my recurrent miscarriages could be cured and would adopt if not.

I must say though, idiots like that are few and far between... and equally I've had childless-by-choice 'friends' telling me I set back feminism and 'waste the UK's medical money'.

There are parent twats, and there are childless twats. It's the circle of life innit.

Garlic and others who have responded to my post, yes, I care about all women, just as I care about all people.

It is only possible to talk in generalisations if you are talking about a more powerful group collectively.

The actions of non mothers collectively suggests they do not understand or do not care. Of course some of them do care as individuals. There are plenty of childless feminists (Germaine Greer for example) who care very much about mothers.

But it isn't about people as individuals when we are talking about a collective problem. If we were talking about homophobia against gay women, the following arguments would be obviously offensive:

1. Why do gay women need special rights? Do you onlycare about gay women not all women?
2. Gay women only have rights because straight women went out and worked and proved women were capable of working.
3. You are bitter. You probably have no straight friends.
4. It isn't pragmatic to try and end homophobia.
5. The problems of straight people are just as bad as the problems of gay people..

As a woman, you have protection under various laws, whether you have children or not. Protecting those laws is important. Mothers have an additional set of laws as a protected group because we face an additional form of disadvantage.

If a mother went to a tribunal, she could argue she was discriminated against as a woman and a mother, just as a trans woman could argue hers as a transgender person and a woman, or a disabled woman could argue hers as a disabled person and a woman.

Because these are all protected categories of groups who are collectively disadvantaged. If someone goesto tribunal as a childless woman, they can only fight their case under one category - gender. You don't have a second layer of structural disadvantage. You are not the disadvantaged group. There is not a need to have aset of employment laws or international human rights laws in place that exists solely to protect childless people. There is such a need for mothers.

Of course I feel empathy when I hear sad anecdotes about childless people, just as there are many sad stories about straight people or able bodied people or white people. But if we are talking about systemic problems which we are collectively trying to resolve, then we start by acknowledging who the disadvantagedgroup is -and fight for that to end, better childcare, more mothers in positions of authority, better maternity leave and pay, better maternity health care.

Holidays where i work come on a first come /first served basis . Christmas and new year , you put down what you would like to work and then the manager does her best to accomodate it , but if you had last Christmas off then you put down to work the next one to make it fair , regardless of whether or not you have children . I actually enjoy working Christmas day , dont tell DH or the children , because it spreads the day out and it means i get out of cooking

I have to say though that i have been guilty in the past of doing the ' you dont know what tired is ' , back when i had my first child , the shock of sleepless nights was horrendous , it feels like it is never ever going to end , but i was saying this to people of my own age group , early 20's who were tired because they had had a heavy weekend . But as you mature you realise that tiredness isnt a competition , everyone has been knackered at some point in their life for whatever reason .

I only have a couple of friends who do not and will never have children. One of them would have loved children given the opportunity , but unfortunately things didnt work out that way for him , the other has never wanted them and is very happy with her choice and her life . I have a fair few friends who have children and do you know what ? i like to spend time with them , without their children , because i choose my friends based on whether i enjoy their company rather than their capacity to procreate .

What is so difficult about it pleaseletgo? Your just looking after children not going to war.

then we start by acknowledging who the disadvantagedgroup is

you are equating having children with homophobia - which was illegal until living memory and being childless (minority - through choice or otherwise) with being a heterosexual majority.

you sound pretty biased to me.

and looking globally people get hung for being gay - so not quite the same a parenthood.