Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

badidea I haven't seen anyone on this thread or in real life suggest going back to the days when women with kids weren't employed at all and I had clearly said it's not everyone. And I clearly said there is some management responsibility in the workplace to try and make it fair for ALL staff. Too often, it is not fair and balanced.

For every firm that gets a temp in to cover maternity leave, there is one that does not and just expects existing staff to cover with no additional pay or benefits. The childfree or childless tend to get dumped on more in that respect, in my experience (clearly, that won't be everyone's experience). Mums and dads get maternity and paternity leave but the childless and childfree can't have a sabbatical in return.

Of course children get sick. I don't expect someone not to be given time off for that. As long as it works both ways and if a childless person has an elderly parent who lives alone and is sick they are given the same time off. Some parents take the piss and I've seen it. But of course many parents play by the ball and make up the lost time.

The comment about mothers know what it was like to be childless because they were once is bullshit. The bottom line is that if you are an empathetic person, then you can empathise with any situation. You have no idea what it is like to actually be me and I have no idea what it is like to be you. I don't see it as mothers v. childless - perhaps a bit of empathy on both sides wouldn't go amiss?

it'd be nice if they could do so without people without dependents bitching about how selfish they are for daring to want to take time off in the holidays to look after their children (the cheek....)

No one is criticising anyone for wanting to take time off in the holidays. What people are criticising is those that think they have some sort of right to always have the holidays off because they have children. It should be fair to all employees.

In my younger years in retail I didn't mind working the Christmas/New Year shifts. It was good money and I wasn't big on going out and partying anyway. But after five years of working that block of shifts, I asked for it off because my mother had died and my dad and I wanted to take a holiday together (and he could only take holidays in school holidays). It was refused because those with children wanted the time off. They'd had five years of the prime holiday period off, and couldn't see that maybe someone else might want a turn. THAT is what pisses people off.

they have been called bitter and bitchy

Maybe but not spinster though

Plus bitter and bitchy can translate across to women with children where as breeder is specifically aimed at women with DC.

Fact women who haven't been pregnant or given birth don't have the first clue. Note please this is a fact a statement of truth.

As for holidays I quite honestly don't care how mine impact on yours, for whatever reason, just like you or several of you don't care that childcare if broken down means there is nowhere for little Jack or Chloe to play all day bar social services offices. Yes it's my lifestyle choice, so what?

I have no experience of infertility or MC and can understand why these woman use these boards and I have the utmost respect for their situations as I'm sure it's incredibly distressing but as for the others generally, yes I'm making a weeping generalisation they mostly use these boards to get advice from the experience other woman have on here gained mostly through being a mother. My point being motherhood is rich and fulfilling and yes it's incredibly hard at times, being childless is a breeze if you've actively chosen it so to come onto a parenting forum and start bashing mothers and bleating on about unfairness is not endearing in anyway, because no you just clearly don't understand.

I say this as a young mother, and a professional.

Private lives should be kept out of the workplace however legislation is there for a reason. As a mother if I want a day off for whatever reason I have to take it as a holiday like everyone else. If childcare unexpectedly breaks down if Jack or Chloe is ill then yes I'm legally entitled to take UNPAID leave with the added cost of being frowned at and cat bum faced so I pay a high price careerwise for having children. You on the other hand may have to choose less desirable holiday dates. I Weigh it up.

OP, you have the best of both worlds at the moment. Good for you.

midnite I think that's appalling, but that's a managemetn decision, your work decided against giving you the leave because it prioritised parents. But not all work places are like that.

not new there have only been 2 people in our work who have taken sababaticals, both of them were childless (one woman in her 30s, one bloke in his 50s). Now I agree there are a lot of shoddy workplaces out there, but to me that is the problem, the shoddy workplaces and the generally selfish attitude of some employees who want everything to revolve around them.

In addition, not replaceing someone who goes off on maternity leave doesn't just impact on the childfree, it impacts on everyone else at work who has to carry the burden which will include parents too.

I was childfree for 37 years, so I've spent far more of my life without kids than with them, but I have never felt the resentment against parents that I've witnessed on this thread. The lack of tolerance is quite an eye opener.

Being in the office environment, changes by the individual people present, before children I never minded covering but you always get the ones who took the piss. I have worked with some women in dire situation that have needed the time off but generally they work twice as hard, miss lunch etc and appreciate others compromises. But the you get the ones swan about and only get into first gear for clocking off, holiday request etc. having children is not the reason they where probably the same when childless. Men however seem to get away with all of this. We did have a single parent dad who for some reason got a lot more sympathy than the single women.

Light the blue touchpaper and stand well back. Pleasejustgo, you've gone to the bother of name changing just to post that on this thread. I'm oddly flattered by your efforts to totally inflame this thread.

You took your time, we're 7 pages in !

I've not name changed

And how is making a statement of fact inflammatory.

I despair I really do. I'm hiding this thread so light as many whatever it is they are.

YY, OP. I have been told that I'm selfish and going to die alone because I don't want children. (Selfish? Of course I am, that's part of the reason I don't want children... )

The worst for me is people who insist that it's because I'm young, and I'll change my mind, like they know me better than I know myself... I get it from men and women. I'm 27 FFS, I'm not 16. I know what I want in my life, and a child is not one of those things. Judge me all you wish in private, but to my face? I don't want to hear it. After all, I don't tell you to your face that I think that you should have used birth control to save the world from another one of your idiotic offspring, but I don't...

even when I was in the process of miscarrying, I was fine with other people having children/babies (unfortunately a friend was staying while helping her DSis with a newborn).

however i am going to a christening this weekend and I really don't want anyone to talk to me about why we don't have children. so I will have to put up a good front and they will probably think I am one of those career women who don't want children.

I do hope to have children. then I will be judged for being too old and going back to work too soon. ca plus ca change.....

I don't think I am more important since having kids.

I do struggle with childcare as 3 have special needs so certain dates are simply impossible for me to get cover- DH is self employed so no workee no money; as a result I am looking at doing cover work for an agency as the only possible way I can return to employment.

When I did work in an office and then a charity with first two children, I took on a LOT of overtime because quite simply I had more bills to meet! And I was more scared of being sacked for same reason. The lass who covered some of my jobs when I was on maternity leave on the other hand was often coming in with a hangover, or wanting weekends off.

On the other hand I am well aware that DH's colleagues didn't like that he was given the only set of straight shifts on his rota at work (nights, but Sun-Thurs), it was because our autistic sons couldn't cope with an ever changing rota but far from not caring or feeling entitled, it's one of the reasons he went self employed. He does a seven day week for far less money now but at least he can keep a routine and make appointments.

The time off worked quite well, DH typically got Christmas off, and most of the non parents were younger and wanted New Year's off (everyone got Christmas Eve). he did work the odd Christmas, it was just life.

I don't judge anyone who doesn't want kids, I have no idea why people should think that, each to their own. I have heard that 'you will die alone' crap from people and it's horrid. And also untrue. As carers we have lost the majority of our RL friends due to isolation, even with 4 kids I bet whichever of us outlives the other faces a far higher chance of dying alone (well, if we're not still providing full time care anyway).

Pleasejustgo Childlessness is a breeze is it? Well, screw you, you have no idea of my life. I never bashed parents anyway, just commented that more empathy on both sides wouldn't be amiss. At least have the courage of the conviction to use your regular name, you just seem goady and ignorant otherwise.

Where does this idea that child-free people are incapable of sympathy come from? My most supportive, understanding, sympathetic friends are childless. In return I am a largely apologetic, crap and absent friend.

But I agree child-free people dont fully understand what it is like to have children. If they did the birth rate would drop by 90%.

But I agree child-free people don't fully understand what it is like to have children. If they did the birth rate would drop by 90%.

I agree that some employers treat childless people unfairly, for example with holidays. And this does unfairly cause resentment of parents.

All childless women have easy lives!! The truth is unless you know someone well, you don't know their struggles.

Someone mentioned the Daily Mail upthread, which is apposite, because some of the posts on here are Daily Mail-tastic. Talk about women having a go at women!

I am 34. I have a two-year-old. My life is very different from my life before my son was born. If I have another child, I expect my life will be very different again. My life would also be very different if I had a disability, or if my husband died. I know people with two or more children, people with disabilities and people who have been widowed, but I cannot understand exactly what life is like for them - of course I can't. I hope I can be sympathetic and not too crassly insensitive, but I can't understand.

I've had conversations with childless, or childfree, friends, who clearly don't understand some of the ways in which children impact upon your life. I don't tell them that they can't possibly understand because they haven't had children because that would be rude. In fact, I have been pleasantly surprised by how many of people have just been observant and done really helpful things, such as agreeing to organise meals earlier in the day, or coming round to us sometimes rather than always expecting us to use various forms of public transport to get to them. I think these people are a lot more thoughtful than I was to my friends with kids before I got pregnant! I have other friends who have no clue (e.g. suggesting that I leave a small baby on their double bed for the evening whilst getting merrily pissed upstairs). But I expect I have no clue about aspects of their lives as well.

As for all the work stuff - yes, I get that it's annoying when people leave early or take particular holidays because of their children. I've spent time putting in extra hours for that precise reason (because I did have 32 years of child-free life, and 11 years of child-free working life, before having a baby). But honestly, pregnancy discrimination is still a huge problem in the workplace. These stats are not up-to-date, but they came 30 years after the introduction of the Sex Discrimination Act and they're pretty shocking: www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/eoc_pregnancygfi_summary_report.pdf. That's why it makes me so sad to see women facing off against women like this. It's the blokes who've had it easy in career terms all these years. Getting into a "who has it tougher" slanging match helps absolutely no-one.

I'm quite surprised to hear that parents get preferential treatment when it comes to holidays in so many offices... In my last couple of work places, if there was an bias, it definitely favoured those without children.

In my opinion, it was because we were seen to be more flexible, and tend to put in more face-time in the office than the parents did, which gave the impression that we worked harder. (Notice I said "the impression", before I get flamed for saying that parents shirk their work responsibilities!) That was definitely rewarded when it came to time-off requests.

unhides thread out of curiosity

Candy, I didn't say life was a breeze and you're incredibly rude to say 'screw me', add children to your life and you'd be playing an entirely different game. I've no idea about you or your life nor was I addressing you directly so your rudeness is entirely offensive and unfounded as for calling me ignorant. I've not named changed, why would I?

As for rolf at advice from mothers about TV threads...it's what we so all day don't you know. You also say you have had invaluable advice from parents on various boards which was my point all along.

For all those saying holidays for parents leave other at a disadvantage, please direct me to these firms as none I've ever worked for give a monkeys about holidays. That's what childcare or annual leave is for.

Pleasejustgo - Add my disability to your life and you would be playing an entirely different game too. So what? We all have our own struggles.

Mooncupmadness

I forgot the smiley after that's what we so all day

Grennie

Yes exactly, this is my point.