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Original poster

Unfairness to childless women

488 replies

zeezeek · 31/03/2014 20:09

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

OP posts:
NotNewButNameChanged · 02/04/2014 17:38

As a childfree bloke, I'm disgusted by some of the comments, particularly those made by bones who clearly has no empathy whatsoever.

What saddens me most is that some women on this thread can have such scant disregard and lack of respect and consideration for other women. And it is very definitely mostly those with children being snide and thoughtless to the childless and childfree.

GarlicAprilShowers · 02/04/2014 17:45

YY. Mind you, if an annual bunch of tulips is her only perceived reward for having children, she definitely made the wrong contraceptive choice!

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 02/04/2014 18:04

i can only imagine that you would have to be very unhappy with your life to make that type of remark.

but i don't believe all mothers who behave negatively towards childless women are unhappy. there certainly can be a very odd dynamic. i suspect some women feel their status is elevated by becoming a mother.

NB: most mothers i know are completely normal people. i am only commenting on a minority.

GrendelsMum · 02/04/2014 18:06

In fact, brcause we've saved all that money on kids, we can splash out on something much nicer than a bunch of tulips

www.realflowers.co.uk/bouquet-collection/scented-garden-rose-and-herb-bouquets.html

Blistory · 02/04/2014 18:14

There seems to be a tendency to ignore the starting point that women are disadvantaged, not because they are mothers, but because they are women.

I agree that many women only realise the extent of those disadvantages when they become parents but they have existed long before that.

Women who become SAHM because they can't afford childcare and their partner earns more are not being disadvantaged because of motherhood but because of their status as women. If they were earning the same as their partner, they would have a choice that they currently don't.

The question is why are they earning less ?

Women who SAH or WOH who find the burden of childcare, housework, elderly relatives etc fall disproportionally on their shoulders are not disadvantaged because they are parents but because they are women.

Society expects the caring burden to fall on women regardless of their status as childfree or otherwise.

If I want my life and my career to continue largely uninterrupted by having a family, then I can do so if I was a man. As a woman, I need to make a choice because it's pretty certain that I can't have it all in the same way a man generally can.

All women face discrimination at school level when deciding on subjects, at career level when trying to find a job, when they are passed over for promotion because they have children or are passed over for promotion because they might have children one day.

Women who have children have rewards in the same way that women who choose not to have children have rewards. Those rewards are simply different. For women unable to have children, then there are no rewards. Society doesn't know what their role is so ignores these women.

As much as the SAHM/WOHM argument is pointless, so is the childless/mother one that is going on here as it simply detracts from the sad reality that women have a long way to go before there is any real equality at home or in the workplace. Maybe if we focused on that instead of infighting, we'd get there sooner.

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 18:32

Notnew

It was me that said that. Why does a midwife have to have had children to safety and expertly deliver them? Should my surgeon have to have undergone surgery in order to be a competent surgeon?

There is a midwife on here I believe with no children, does that mean she shouldn't be practicing?

I really don't understand your point.

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 18:33

And no I did say they didn't know about childbirth anyone can have a theoretical knowledge of something.

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 18:33

Didn't

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 02/04/2014 18:34

radio 4 is on this topic right now (comedy)

OnlyLovers · 02/04/2014 18:43

YANBU. People seem to feel that they can comment with impunity on people who are child-free.

IME time off work is still massively biased towards those with kids.

I made a comment once on kids in the quiet coach of the train and was told piously by a friend with kids that they often sit in there with their children and the children are 'usually' 'quite' well-behaved Hmm.

I was once told by someone that she could quite understand why I didn't have kids because I liked to go out and it would 'cramp my style', as though I'd made the choice because I cold-heartedly weighed up kids against nights out, when the truth is I just don't want them.

And don't even get me started on my PILs' attitude to me and my partner not having kids or wanting them.

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 18:47

And finally one of midwives doesn't have any children but that didn't stop her delivering my daughter with absolutely no complications.

She was calm professional and pretty wonderful in fact. Her having children was a non factor.

Your comment also suggest men shouldn't be midwives. Do you really think that? In fact a male midwife on another occasion actually took life saving measures, had he not I wouldn't be typing this.

NurseyWursey · 02/04/2014 18:51

pleasjustgo his point was a good one, he was replying to someone who said only mothers know about childbirth. And then questioned that with what about midwives who haven't children...

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 18:56

Yes I was the one who said only woman who have given birth can truly know why it's like. We did this to death earlier Hmm

What did I miss, was he being ironic in the next part of his post?

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 18:58

Right I've reread his post possibly he didn't understand the part about only women who've given birth can actually know what's it's like to give birth.

I can't speak for him though.

GarlicAprilShowers · 02/04/2014 19:04

Blistory, 18:14 - Well, yes! Flowers

GarlicAprilShowers · 02/04/2014 19:11

I'll pick up on this, though: women who choose not to have children have rewards. Those rewards are simply different. For women unable to have children, then there are no rewards.

Not quite true. Women who didn't choose to have children, but had them anyway, reap rewards of motherhood. The majority of women like me, who would have had children if we could, appreciate the benefits of child-freedom anyway. I could not have done all the amazing things I've done, if I'd managed a live birth. And I have done amazing things! Just not that one. Swings & roundabouts. Life is still life!

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 19:27

I agree garlic and motherhood is not without great sacrifice.

GarlicAprilShowers · 02/04/2014 19:34

Yeah, but I can't be expected to understand that Wink

Mothers get unconditional love. Gotta be worth a sacrifice, surely? Or do you all secretly wish you could un-have your children??

You don't, do you Grin

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 19:49

Of course you don't Wink

There are parts I'd happily give up yes but I wouldn't 'unborn' my children no.

Hindsight and all that but the reason I'd do it differently is because of the societal challenges I've faced by having children.

I was all idealistic and had it all planned out but my god I didn't know what was in store and the opposition I'd meet. I've achieved (and sacrificed part if my soul along the way) much of what I set up to do but it's not been without it's challenges.

I've accepted my fate as I made the choices therefore the consequences are my own doing. Some consequences though are the result of the way the society I've had my children in is set up. I had no idea of this at the time as I was as I said oh so idealistic and possibly optimistically naive.

All I can do now is hope my children don't have to waste time messing about with the restrictions I did in having had children and want to do other things. It's time wasting and frustrating.

Anyway that's my little story Wink

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 19:50

Unborn - unhave on phone so thre thread disappears Smile

GarlicAprilShowers · 02/04/2014 19:54

I was all idealistic and had it all planned out but my god I didn't know what was in store and the opposition I'd meet. I've achieved (and sacrificed part if my soul along the way) much of what I set up to do but it's not been without its challenges.

Haha, me too! And, yes, we have to keep working towards levelling the ground for our daughters & sons - well, yours.

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 19:55

Eg of a part I'd give up is the part when one of them is sobbing into it's vegetables and being thoroughly rude as it doesn't feel like eating tonight. That sort of thing. Confused

The desperation of helplessness of an ill child.

Anyway there is a lot but yes there are rewards. Many and I'm grateful for those.

Pleasejustgo · 02/04/2014 19:56

Thank you I wish more people would.

heisenberg999 · 02/04/2014 19:56

Blistory - I have it all as I have a dh. I soon will of had 2 maternity leaves of 2 weeks as dh does all the baby bits so I can further my career. It doesnt have to be that the womans career is affected if shes ambitious.

rowna · 02/04/2014 20:01

I think if someone is a carer, either to dc or relatives, it's just more complicated to manage things. It's harder when you have more than yourself to consider. I didn't mind working xmas day when it was just dp and me. Because we can make a day of it on boxing day instead. But it's upsetting for a five year old or an elderly relative. I don't think people think they're more important when they have dc. Just stressed about how they're going to manage. I think I was fairly useless at my job when dc were small through lack of sleep. But I'm very understanding now if other people are below par. Whether it be due to illness, family ilness, caring duties, problems with pets, or indeed their dc.

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