Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

No OP I do not think YABU.

I don't have children (for various reasons), may have/adopt etc in future but unsure as to how that would pan out.

I do know a few mothers who admit to me that having children wasn't the be all and end of their life, and one or two who say they wish they hadn't had children.

On the one hand I get sympathy/pity from women who are either childless or who have children and wonder why I have not had children and/or dare I say it praise for not having children from other people.

It's a hard balance to strike. I have always been 50/50 depending on the relationship I was in, to have children or not. Indeed I was pregnant when very young but due to circumstance had a termination and the 2nd pregnancy sadly was a miscarriage.

But I would not be one of those women you occasionally read about in newspapers who have a child at whatever costs simply because they want to be a parent and have a child.

It is one of those situations where in a sense if you don't have children how will you know how you'd feel about them etc? But I don't see myself any the less as a mother/woman for not having children.

Oh and for the poster who ages ago asked why us non-mums were here, I was directed through Google to an excellent thread on claiming back PPI so that's my reason, should I have to have one for being here!

Captain

Another one who hasn't rtft?

Bones, there is a lot of evidence to support what you are saying. Globally, mothers going into the workplace often shifts the burden of unpaid or low paid childcare provision on to women and girls who do not have children of their own. In many countries where state childcare is not available, mothers going out to work increases the number of illiterate and uneducated women as their older daughters are removed from school to care for younger siblings.

I was childless until I was 40 so I had quite a lot of experience as a 'childless' woman, and no I had no idea what life would be like with children.

Now I have had 6 years experience as a mother - the main differences are mostly to do with tiredness. And never having any time to 'myself'. (Time to myself now involves housework.) And knowing not to believe "the hype" re parenting/children/new inventions to make parenting easier/etc.

I agree with the poster above who spoke of the media - too many people get way too much information on their lives from people who are motivated by trying to sell us things. It's always going to be a bit fucked up if that is the case.

I get annoyed when people assume that because I don't want children that I dislike them. That couldn't be further from the truth. I really enjoy cuddling and playing with my friends children then they make a comment about how I am good with kids seeing as I don't like children. I also try to be considerate to my friends and to work around them. If we are planning lunch I will ask them when is good for them and plan accordingly.

bones And some non-childfree women haven't a clue what it's like to have different life stressors. Surely, it's about being empathetic. If you lack empathy to appreciate someone may have their own troubles, then it doesn't matter if you're a parent or not, you're just a self-centred twonk. Parenting has zilch to do with appreciating that different people have different capacities for coping.

Here's a post from that thread

"Someone above mentioned the book "Life after Birth" I think, though I couldn't find out who when I just searched for it. one of my friends read it when our babies were tiny and I meant to but never got around to it. So I bought it on kindle and it is ok but she is not like the world's greatest writer or anything, but it is great to see a lot of stuff written down, a lot of the stuff we are saying on here, and acknowledged.

I think she is afraid that she is falling into the trap of just being negative about all the awful things you can feel so she attempts to leaven it with positive suggestions about what you can do. Which can be very annoying as they are just hollow suggestions for many people - noting the outcome you desperately need with no actual practical nuts and bolts of how to get there - the equivalent of sitting down with a starving person and doing a head tilt and saying, "I think, sweetie, you are going to have to get yourself some food from somewhere, hm?"

I think this habit comes from an unwillingness to acknowledge how all the things that could help are completely dependent on other people's good will, or having the money to pay them, which are outside the grasp of many. The latest gems I read this morning on the train were "build back in something selfish and indulgent for you a few times a week" (if I had read that when either of my babies were under 6 months I would have wept, and had an imaginary hysterical conversation with her where I shrieked HOW? HOW? WHEN? HOW?) and "play to your strengths. If you like stickers and colouring but don't like playgrounds, avoid playgrounds, or let someone else take them there." Seriously? When you have an incredibly physical two year old child trying to climb the bookcases you are supposed to say, "no, I don't do playgrounds. Do some colouring instead."

I know I am lucky in that I don't have incredibly physical children and I can play to my strengths, which are things like books and lego and imaginative play; and also in that I have my job and while I am at work someone else can stand in for me, and be not-me, and do the things I don't want to do. This is pure luck.

Mothers should strike (of course we can't because we would never risk neglecting our children) - but we are asking, asking, asking, or not daring to ask, for what we need. Other workers only got their rights by taking them by force."

People who think mothers are over-accommodated by, for instance, extended families, should see that help graciously extended as a favour is what lies between some mothers and insanity or suicide. Being a mother is to be constantly denied what you need. Not what you want - but need. Anyone who can give you a chance to sleep or eat is your saviour. If a person without children, who has no other external barriers to eating or sleeping reasonably often, sees this as the childless being oppressed.... well. There is nothing to be said.

No candy, it is not just about empathy. It is also about knowledge and about objective material fact.

I had children late and still have childfree friends, some of whom may well remain that way for ever. I love to see them and listen very sympathetically if they are having a hard time. BUT if they are, they don't get my back up by pretending that it is ALL THE FAULT OF MOTHERS

I'm not sure why posters are still bleating on about X not understanding Y. No one fully understands what it is like to be another person.

So......Jane is a mother and Susan is a mother. Jane has a supportive, caring husband and a 8 year old son who goes to school and a part-time job as a specialist nurse which she loves. Life is stable and secure with a supportive family network. Susan's ex-partner abused her and left her with no money, she lives in a hostel with her 18 month old twins and she is pregnant again. She has no family, no friends in the area, limited money and has never worked due to illness. They are grouped as 'mothers' but their situations are like chalk and cheese. We need to stop labelling people and grouping them together.

bones You only know what it is like to be YOU, you have no idea what it is like to be another human being, you can only listen and empathise.

"I'm not sure why posters are still bleating on about X not understanding Y. No one fully understands what it is like to be another person. "

This is why empathy is such a red herring. It has nothing to do with actual oppression by one group at the hands of another.

I guess my angle on this is that I wish women experiencing oppression by the patriarchy would name it, and STOP "bleating on" about other women not understanding them, as if that had anything to do with it.

On the other hand I do think the thread I linked to is great if anyone has any doubt about their understanding of personal experiences of motherhood.

Susana ex partner is a twat but if she was childless her situation would not be so dire though let's be honest?

If we stop labelling people into groups will the systemic oppression of them magically disappear?

Now that Barack Obama is president, does it no longer matter that black mothers are four times more likely to die than white mothers in the US as a direct consequence of pregnancy, because racism has now vanished?

Jane and Susan are both mothers. Susan is a woman, a mother, a homeless person, poor, in poor health and the victim of domestic violence.

Jane has two intersecting disadvantages - she is a woman and a mother. Susan has at least six intersecting disadvantages. It doesn't mean mothers as a group don't experience systemic disadvantage; it just means that Susan is a member of multiple groups who experience systemic disadvantage. Hopefully Jane is fighting for the rights of mothers like Susan, not going I'm okay, what is the issue?

On a side note that's the first time I've sworn so rudely on MN (I think)

I didn't swear at you.

Maybe living in the hostel with Susan is Helen, a childless woman who also has no family support network and also struggles to find work through illness. Helen was in care, was abused by various men during this time, and has addiction issues and is receiving support for these. Susan is attracting a certain level of support because society attempts to mitigate the damage done to her children through her circumstances.

What would be the point of Susan sniping "It's alright for you druggies, there is loads of therapy and stuff for you?"

What would be the point of Helen sniping "it's alright for you mothers, they won't let you be homeless for long"?

Both of them are living in a homeless hostel because the violence done to them by patriarchy has left them damaged and unable to support themselves. NAME IT

bones Sorry, I am genuinely not understand you. You're talking about the patriarchy but this whole thread is women pitting themselves against other women. I am trying to say that we should live and let live; appreciate that different groups of people have different struggles in life and not compare ourselves because we are all different.

Candy

I know you didn't I called the ex partner of Susan a twat.

Oopsy, sorry! I think I'm going to have to get my eyes checked, I keep reading things wrong!

Candy, are you claiming that there is no patriarchy and that women are not a disadvantaged group collectively when compared to men?

I never wanted children and then becoming pregnant at almost 40 was a true shock. I now have my little girl and I love her to bits. However she hasn't completed my life and I don't feel I am more worthy than before I had a child.

What does sadden me is that friends and family now treat me differently. Some friends seem to act as though I am now part of their club and when we arrange to meet up I often get asked if I want to bring the children when all I want to do is see my friends without the distraction of a few small people. We never did before - why should it change now?

When I told one relative I was pregnant I got told this would be the "making of" me which has subsequently been said by other family members. Clearly nothing I had achieved before conceiving actually mattered.

I would just like to add that I never used to consider myself childless just child free and because I was clear this was my choice I never seemed to come up against any prejudice. Funny how the prejudice appeared after I had a baby eh?

"in families generally its the ones without children who are expected to accommodate those that do."

I and various childless friends have siblings that do have children and all but one of us share an experience which sounds a bit like some people's work:

if there is any time consuming/boring jobs e. help an elderly relative with something, its always the childless ones who have pressure to help the most/get taken for granted etc.

family events have to be arranged around what the parents claim is necessary for their children welfare. only for facebook to show otherwise when it suits the parents.

it something along the lines of: If you don't have children, your reasons for wanting to do something/not do something are ascribed to yourselfishness where as if you have children, you frame it in terms of The Children.

as xenadog says: What does sadden me is that friends and family now treat me differently. Some friends seem to act as though I am now part of their club

Careerwise having children in your early twenties creates a very different situation to having children at almost 40 and unfortunately in my opinion is the younger women who lose out. There should be a choice for women to have children whenever they like without their career being affected.

I made it a point before I and DD to give people the impression I did not want a child (mainly to stop people asking). I used to let comments as to not understanding things go over my head but in the interest of being fair there WERE some things I did not appreciate or understand; for example:

I (to my shame) probably grumbled at an unhappy toddler on a packed train - now I have nothing but sympathy and admiration. DD is 18 months and well used to commuting now but does have her moments. I totally appreciate commuters might not like the fact I have a kid thats creating noise on a train but, lets be fair, I am not having a picnic either - raised eyebrows and tutting is not going to make us disappear.

I never understood parents turning nights out down due to babysitters. We have no local family and now I fully appreciate it makes for a very expensive night out!

That said what does get me now is comments from mainly childless friends (or friends with grown up children) 'wait till she's older and xyz...', 'just let her scream it out' and general negativity - it goes both ways!

I know plenty of 18-21 year old childless women who have to advise 30 + something mothers on how to raise their children as they have much more experience with children than actual mums.