Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

Heisen

Childless authors can also give good advice...

I would much more trust the advice of my really young colleagues who have brought up their brothers and sisters, babysit for whole weekends and spend all week looking after 100s of children with every difficulty imaginable than someone with one child who had no interaction with children until their 30s Those mums take advice from our young girls because they are way more experienced.

Yes but neither a book nor a childless 18-21 has any experience of actually being a mother. Maybe I've missed further context of your post as I'm on my phone.

I just think some mums come in and say I couldnt imagine taking 4/5 under 5s out on your own and the young girls thinking why? As all of us had done that when we were still in our teens at weekends looking after others and siblings etc. We hear stuff like that all the time about lots of issues and it just comes down to life experiences.

'Yes but neither a book nor a childless 18-21 has any experience of actually being a mother'

Well that's true, but maybe sometimes you need some cool headed advice from someone who is not as emotionally invested in the situation as you are. Their advice could still be valuable. Or maybe not, but it could be.

Totally agree that some people who are not parents themselves know a lot more about children than some parents do. I'm often amazed when I work with parent by how many of them are totally ill at ease in their own child's company, like they have never been introduced to each other!

Hats off to them, I wouldn't want to take out that many under 5s but that's not my job

They can of course advise in childcare but not motherhood

They usually know what they are doing as you take things more in your stride. When they have 1 child they think is this it? When mums who are not used to children are flapping.

almondcake How on earth did you draw that from my post, especially when I agreed and said it was sad to see women slagging each other off? Men don't seem to experience this in the work place or anywhere!

"I and various childless friends have siblings that do have children and all but one of us share an experience which sounds a bit like some people's work:

if there is any time consuming/boring jobs e. help an elderly relative with something, its always the childless ones who have pressure to help the most/get taken for granted etc.

family events have to be arranged around what the parents claim is necessary for their children welfare. only for facebook to show otherwise when it suits the parents.

it something along the lines of: If you don't have children, your reasons for wanting to do something/not do something are ascribed to yourselfishness where as if you have children, you frame it in terms of The Children."

Let me get this straight, YouAreMyFavourite. If in a family there are childfree adults and some with small children, do you think that the convenience of when / how things happen when the family meets should strictly alternate, even if some have much more time and flexibility than others?

What about money? If an elder relative needed something vital and couldn't afford it, that cost £100, and you agreed to club together to buy it, would you expect say 6 adults in the family to put the same in - one on a pension, one a student, 4 earning £50k or more? I would say in that case you would ask the OAP and the student to put in any amount they could afford, say £10 or £20, if they wanted to, and let the others cover the bulk of the cost.

Similarly, I think many families have an equivalent understanding of the time and energy that is demanded of mothers of small children and see that asking them to go and do something for Aunty Vera is not remotely the same as asking someone with no dependents and 25 days annual leave and every single weekend to themselves, to go and do something for Aunty Vera.

I don't think you do have an understanding of this, and honestly, you are sounding so whiny and moany now that I am sick of you and this will now be the third thread I hide today.

I think the bit that is blowing my mind is people minding that parents suggest "can we do such and such for the sake of the children" and then people honestly leap on incidents on facebook where they have managed things differently and think "How dare they! They said they could never get a babysitter". Or in other words "how can anyone be more important than me? How can they do things differently sometimes, but not for me, thus demonstrating that I AM NOT THE TOP OF THE STATUS PILE IN THEIR PRIORITIES"? How utterly weirdly mean-spirited and bizarre. Why would you not want to do things in such a way that your nephews and nieces are comfortable, and how is it remotely an argument for making them uncomfortable that on some other occasion there were taken out of their comfort zone? Oh, you think they are lying? To exploit you? FFS, stop seeing these people at all then, if that is how you think they operate. Jesus.

Good luck with everything. I hope feeling sorry for yourself and resentful of others gets you what you want in life.

Candy, from this:

'I am trying to say that we should live and let live; appreciate that different groups of people have different struggles in life and not compare ourselves because we are all different.'

Patriarchy is a system where women as a collective group are disadvantaged compared to men.

I don't see how you can believe in a patriarchy, which is dependent upon the comparing of two different groups of people, and then say the above. It seems a contradiction.

Or are you are saying it is okay to acknowledge that women are more disadvantaged than men, but it is not okay to acknowledge other unequal situations. So it is not okay to say that black women are disadvantaged compared to white women, or that lesbians are disadvantaged compared to straight women?

Did I read earlier something about only mothers can know about childbirth?

Presumably mums-to-be would be horrified and scared witless to have a midwife who didn't have children herself? And perhaps refuse to be tended to by such a person, because having not gone through childbirth themselves they can't possibly know....

Oh Christ on a bike, I am talking about on this thread, not in the wider society! Are you being deliberately obtuse?

bones your response is very OTT. of course I can put more in with an old or ill relative than someone with young children. but they are not all my responsibility either.

I think the bit that is blowing my mind is people minding that parents suggest "can we do such and such for the sake of the children" and then people honestly leap on incidents on facebook where they have managed things differently and think "How dare they! They said they could never get a babysitter". Or in other words "how can anyone be more important than me? How can they do things differently sometimes, but not for me, thus demonstrating that I AM NOT THE TOP OF THE STATUS PILE IN THEIR PRIORITIES"?

actually I was thinking about them using it as an excuse not to visit elderly/dying relatives - nothing to do with me. but don't let reality stop your ranting.

I don't feel sorry for myself - i have has two miscarriages but as i said unthread i had a friend staying during the last one and she never knew as she as helping her sister with a new born and i did not want to make her feel awkward. i think i will be a parent.

tbh you are projecting your own issues and seeing what you want to see.

I am talking about patriarchy because there are some women on this thread who seem to think that they are being treated badly in favour of, and at the hands of, mothers. Not on this thread, but in life.
This is a mistake. This is a misapprehension of what is happening. I am pointing that out. I am pointing out that the social disapprobation of childfree women comes directly from patriarchy's bad attitude towards women in general; has a direct analogue in patriarchy's bad attitude towards mothers; and is almost the only penalty (there are very few to no material penalties, as there are for motherhood)

Youaremyfavouritewasteoftime, before I hide this thread: next time someone tries to get you to spend a couple of hours with Aunty Ethel and you don't feel like it, offer to look after someone's children while they do it

No, I am asking a genuine question. Many of your posts are addressed to bones. Like me, she has pointed out that mothers are a disadvantaged group compared to childless women through structural inequality.

You are saying that we should not compare groups but instead accept that people have different struggles.

You now seem to be saying that you don't apply this where women collectively are the disadvantaged group, or where it is black women, or lesbians.

So the only group who you want us all to stop talking about the structural disadvantage of when compared to another group of women is mothers. When it comes to mothers, you instead want us to say, we all have our own different struggles.

And you are considering women who want to point out that this is a structural inequality to be part of 'women pitting themselves against other women.'

But only mothers? Is that right? Any other group of women who experience a different structural inequality can still point out that imbalance without being considered to be pitting themselves against other women?

Again, I was talking about not tearing shreds out of one another on this social media forum and having empathy with each other's hardships. Seriously, I cannot make that any clear.

*clearer

dones - when an elderly relative needs some help, i help them, i don't palm them off to someone else like their age makes them less worthy than the rest of us.

I haven't caught up yet but really want second this: why are mothers putting so much effort into telling child less women their problems are small?

It's pretty horrid, you know. And bollocks to your snidey comment about a bunch of tulips, whoever made it.

I, too, have no support other than what I can pay for (none, as it goes.)
Nobody loves me unconditionally. No-one ever will.
I am not the centre of anyone's world.
I do not shape anybody's future.
I am excluded from the majority (here in the provinces) of women's social circles.
Despite the fact that I am one in four, I'm perceived as an oddity.

Stop whingeing about how much worse it is to have none of the above. Sure it's different. Try looking the other side of the fence, or get off a thread about childfree women if you don't want to acknowledge us.

and avoiding the topic that 'barren women' are discriminated against both in history and globally.

and by many religions where it is grounds for divorce.

Oh my goodness, where to start...

I've RTFT and can't be bothered to wade in at this stage - everything has been said already :)

That buying your own tulips comment was one of the nastiest things I have read on here in a long time though...

It was bonesarecoralmade who said:

There are no economic costs. If you take on the cost of buying yourself a bunch of tulips every mother's day over a lifetime, you're still quids in.

Bones what an awesome woman you are.

Well said Garlic

another bones remark:

"boo hoo hoo everyone is mean to me because I have no kids"