Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

I havr pleasejustgo. Its your post fact is womrn who havent been pregnant havent a clue and I just looked up all 108 posts you havr ever posted to re read everyone you wrote on this thread and still think your wrong

I have read your comments.

So me saying woman who haven't gone through childbirth don't know what it's like I factually incorrect?

Me saying even though my DCs father hasn't given birth but still knows what it's like to parent is again incorrect?

Hmmmmm interesting.

As for holidays I thought I'd made it quite clear in all the firms I've worked for nobody gives a stuff if you've children or not the responsibility is on the parent to find childcare or take annual leave.

Again hmmmmmm

Or are you talking about something entirely different?

there are many things that are factually correct but the only people who say them are wankers.

and that is factually correct.

Employment law gives greater protection and adjustments to people who have greater needs.

Rightly so. Having children isn't a greater need. I disagree with the rest of what you've said, too almondccake, but as you apparently lump me together with all other childfree women as uncaring, etc, etc, I don't actually expect you to be able to see things from any perspective wider than your own.

You might like to know, though, that I went shopping halfway through this thread and bought an almond cake. You've affected my subconscious

Please, you did actually say that I think you backtracked a little bit though.

Surely everyone thinks its different. Ive given birth a few times it was really easy. Others end up in emergencies losing blood etc.

Read what you've just said

Heisen

What does that have to do with woman who've never given birth?

Read what you've jut said was at youaremyfavourite

that just does not work. but carry on.

Huh?

You said women who havent been pregnant or given birth havent got the first clue. Fact. If it was some kind of secret all us mothers now know about from doing this pretty mundane act all mammals do then I must not have been informed.

No they don't have the first clue about childbirth. How is that incorrect?

Like I said you've not read my posts. Anyway moving on.

pleasedontgo - you can do what you like dear but I wont bother with your comments and I suggest no one else does.

You called me a wanker and then did exactly what you called me a wanker for. Dear.

Did I miss something ? Since when has motherhood been a protected characteristic ?

Pregnant women have specific employment rights up to and including maternity leave and pay but thereafter it is about parental rights and leave. None of which is for the good of the parent but is about the welfare of the child.

Women, never mind mothers, are not a protected class. They are protected by laws against sexism but equally, so are men.

God, I so don't want to get bogged down in this ... ... It's utterly daft to assert people don't know what something's like unless they've done it themselves, Please. Especially such a commonplace event as childbirth. Nearly everybody knows what childbirth's like in general. As heisen says, all births are individually different. So, if you persist in your fallacy, no woman who's given birth knows what giving birth is like because she didn't have the exact same births as any other woman!

Bonkers.

Since when has motherhood been a protected characteristic?

Ohh ... since Mumsnet launched.

If that's at me I said women who haven't given birth don't know what it's like. That's it.

You're right this is tedious.

blistory - you are quite right its 'pregnancy and maternity' that are protected.

I aware of lots of things in a theoretical manner but I wont have the same understanding of the process as somebody who has actually experienced it. My understanding of the situation will be formed from things i've picked up in the media, knowledge amassed along the way etc etc. While I wouldn't be as crass to say woman who haven't given child-birth don't have a clue trying to suggest that knowledge with first-hand experience is equally as valid as bystander knowledge is wrong

Oh how I love it when the full context is missed. Deliberately or otherwise.

Garlic, I have never said that you, or indeed women without children were uncaring. There is a limit to how many issues and to what extent any person can fully understand or actively care about every single situation they are not in. That applies no more to childless women than any other group of people.

Ultimately my perspective that mothers have greater needs is not my perspective. It is the perspective of international human rights.

The universal declaration of human rights, in article 25:

'Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance.'

This is implemented in almost every developed country and many developing ones by giving pregnant women, breastfeeding women and mothers of young children additional rights, protections and adjustments in the workplace on the basis of their greater need, that are not given to women who are not pregnant and/or do not have children.

Your perspective that 'having children isn't a greater need' in the context of mothers having greater rights in the workplace is not the perspective on which our laws are made.

If you are really saying that motherhood isn't a greater need, and mothers don't need protection, that would be an end to maternity leave, hospital appointment time off for pregnant women, sickness leave for extreme morning sickness, no maternity pay, no right not to be sacked or not promoted because you went off work to give birth, no right to request flexible working, no time off for a sick child, no right to breastfeeding facilities at work, no right not to be exposed to chemicals, xrays or moving heavy objects when pregnant and so on. I don't believe, given your posting history, and as you are a poster I greatly respect, that you really believe that pregnant women and mothers don't have greater needs and that it should not be a legally protected characteristic.