Was I Unreasonable to this child?

[iamsoannoyed]

I was at a party with DD (aged 5)- she was a guest, not her party. It was at a place which has a soft play area beside the cafe (party rooms upstairs). The children had just played ten-pin bowling, and were coming through to play in the soft play area.

I was sitting with some of the other mums having coffee when one of DDs friends, whose mum I am reasonably friendly with and has been to our house/DD has been to hers, came over. She poked me in the stomach and said "haha, your kid came last". Those were her exact words.

I was a . I said to her "please don't talk to me like that, it's very rude. And you can't be the best at everything, so it's not very kind to tease people for being last.". I did not shout or raise my voice and did not get out of my chair.

She went red, ran off and I thought no more of it.

Her granny had brought her to the party. I don't think granny had noticed this exchange, but one of the other mums did and we both just raised an eyebrow. This little girl has been known to throw strops with the other children if she doesn't get her way and is also known as a bit of a madam at times, but is basically a normal little girl.

I got a phone call tonight from the girls mum to say she was very cross that I had "disciplined" her daughter. She thought I should have waited until I got home and then called her to raise my concerns.

I explained what had happened, and stated while I thought it was rude and fairly unpleasant behaviour on her DDs part and she needed a reminder that you shouldn't speak to adults like that, I didn't think it warranted a phone call home after the party (and hours after the "incident") as that was just making a mountain out of a molehill. Had the girl's mother been there, I would have mentioned what had happened.

I imagine her DD would probably have forgotten all about the incident by the end of the party, and would have been a bit confused as to what the fuss was about.

Was I unreasonable? I really genuinely don't think I was.

I would expect any other adult to have acted similarly if my DD had spoken to them like this (and would have been fairly mortified that she had done so).

TBH, I think I should just avoid play dates with DD and this girl, as I will not have a child in my house who I cannot even ask to behave in an acceptable manner in my own home in case her parents are upset by this.

However, I think if you are the sort of person who thinks that what the OP did was too harsh, then there is no way that you are going to be the sort of parent who sets clear enough boundaries.

That is quite frankly rubbish.

In the OP's position I would have probably said something along the same lines then realised I'd been too harsh and done something about it. However my children have very clear boundaries, as do the children I childmind and their behaviour when in my care is usually excellent. I have often been asked how I do it so I know that this is the case.

My children love teachers who expect high standards of behaviour because they are the ones with similar boundaries to mine.

Making that sort of sweeping judgements about other people's parenting is ridiculous. All sorts of parents have all sorts of parenting styles and all their children respond to them in their own ways. The fact that you may need to be more assertive in your parenting style to manage your own children's boundaries doesn't mean that all children need the same or that all children will respond to someone less familiar using the same approach with the same resilience.

Parents are different. Children are different. Parenting is individual and different from you isn't automatically inadequate.

I'm going to hide this thread now because people who think that theirs is the only way to parent and anyone who doesn't do it their way is inadequate, make me too wound up.

However, I think if you are the sort of person who thinks that what the OP did was too harsh, then there is no way that you are going to be the sort of parent who sets clear enough boundaries.

Because that's not a sweeping generalization

I think your spot on and very balanced Goldmantra - if your still peeking.

Maybe other people don't hear the word "rude" as so strong. Maybe in other people's minds, being rude is just what lots of children are, so not so harsh. To me that word alone is what made OP's comments a bit harsh; the rest was proportionate.

I could not have taken that little girl so seriously, not made it into a confrontation. Presuming the poke was annoying rather than actually painful, I could imagine replying with "Well I'm proud of my girl for trying her hardest" or better "But my kid is so lovely that I would never want any other kid. Even if she was the last by billions of miles she'd still be the best kid in the world to me."

Am I way too idealistic? Does that message not have the potential to teach something instead of having to respond with a rebuke?

It wasn't a confrontation. The OP calmly challenged some poor behaviour and that was that.

Things the majority have agreed on:

the child was brat-ish, behaved badly and probably has a fairly permissive and ineffective parent

it is not acceptable for children to poke adults, especially in the stomach

OP was not unreasonable to chastise said brati-ish child for being a poker and a gloater

Things on which there has been (mostly) civilized discussion:

whether OP's phraseology could be improved upon

whether child developing red skin and retreating is a sign of suitable embarassment at being called on bratistic behaviours or whether she received a primal wound to her psyche which may require years of counselling

Conclusion:

individual parents will parent in different ways.

different ways have different merits and do depend on the relationship with aforementioned brat-ish child.

that does not prove however that different ways are more or less effective. they are just different. they could be equally effective

there is more than one way to skin a goose or indeed rebuke a child

the proof will be in the goose-pudding. if brat-ish child pokes OP again she will know that her actions were ineffective. if brat-ish child runs screaming in terror from OP in Tescos when they meet by chance she will know she is OTT. if brat-ish child ceases to poke and gloat OP and OPs daughter then it could be reasonably concluded that OPs actions were effective in correcting undesirable behaviour.

One's own children may of course still be shouted at, but not by other people.

Sunday night is a time for wine, not whine

How was this a confrontation, lljkk? It was a short measured statement to the child. It's all very well proclaiming what you would have done having had the luxury of time to think about it, but do you seriously contend you would have said all that in the OP's circumstances? And do you think that would have been effective in stopping this child from going off and taunting the others?

Hmm

I agree with nenny. The OPs response was a pretty clear staemnt. Not sure what message the child would understand from your more gentle, but less direct, approach lijkk.

adopt

The little brat was very rude and was told in a calm, but no nonsense way.

So she may have been rather embarrassed. So what? Children don't learn manners if they are not told, and clearly her mother is ineffectual at parenting her little darling.

I would have done the same as the OP, and would not be ashamed of it at all.

lijkk, that sounds like a fair way to make a point to a child about not gloating over others. It doesn't address the poking behaviour at all, though.

Great summing up, adopt.

the plain fact is it must have been upsetting for the child to have gone home and reported it and for the mum to call

OR

This girl is not used to being told no about anything and was offended at being pulled up.
Honestly, the rebuke was pretty mild considering what she said/did - this is not a sensitive child, but one who made a point of gloating about the OP's daughter coming last.

Despite the protestations about one method of parenting not being better than another, we all make judgements. And my judgement is that a parent who is unwilling to tell a child he/she is rude when he/she clearly has been is doing both the child and those around it a disservice. Clearly some people disagree, but happily plenty don't.

I actually do think the OP was being unreasonable.

The child was clearly badly behaved but probably because she hasn't been taught acceptable manners (for whatever reason). Therefore it's not actually her fault (at age 5, would be different if she were older).

IMO an acceptable response would be a frown and words to the effect of "That's not a very nice thing to say X (name)". So clearly disapproving but without actually directly calling the child rude. I don't think it would do untold damage to call her rude but I also don't think it's appropriate or necessary. I would be very annoyed if someone did that to my children. I wouldn't however ring the parent concerned and complain because the telling off would have been justified. I just wouldn't like the way the OP did it. I would make a mental note and steer clear of the parent.

And I also think the OP is being unreasonable in saying that the child won't be welcome to play because she feels she cannot dictate how to behave. If you object to the behaviour - fair enough reason to not invite. But to not invite because you feel you can't tell off - seems a bit controlling. There are milder ways around bad behaviour that give exactly the same message but just not as harshly.

British gal, that is what was saying to the Chid. Wat te hell is wrong with te word rude, the girl was rude. At that age they should understand that! I agree with op not having anymore playdates, her house her rules. The mum had a problem with anyone correcting her child so op is going to find this difficult as little princess will go running to mum Everytime something does not go her way, getting phone calls all the time. Blame the mum for that, not op!

I think the OP pitched it quite well. What words would you have used bratingham in her situation?

Britishgal,

I respect your views, although I disagree with them.

I don't find the word "rude" an inappropriate one to use to a 5/6 year old. My DD understands what it means, I have told her she is being rude in the past when she has been. I would not be dismayed if another parent called my DD rude, when she had demonstrably been so. I think this girl understands what it means too. And she was rude- not for the first time either. Genuinely don't understand the sensitivity to the word "rude", but I can see some people do have a real problem with it being used towards a child.

As for not having the child to play- well, that's not on the basis of the child being rude or difficult in the past. That's because I will be unable to have any form of discipline in my house when she is here, as her mother has specifically stated that she does not want anybody (not just me) other than her or her DH to speak to her DD regarding her behaviour in any way.

So if her DD was acting in a way which was unacceptable (whether rude, silly, mean or perhaps even dangerous) in my house, I would be expected to either ignore it (which I find unacceptable, and also unfair to allow her to misbehave in front of my DD, when she would be told off for doing the same thing); ignore it at the time and phone her mother later; or phone her mother at the time if she does misbehave. Which just seems more hassle than it's worth.

It's not about "controlling" anyone- but I do expect my house rules to be adhered to in my home, in the same way I expect my DD to behave when she is in other peoples, and I do expect to be able to reprimand a child who doesn't behave when that child is in my home. If I can't do that, then I think it's best all round for me not to put myself or the child's mother in that awkward situation of being annoyed with each other.

What the hell is the problem with calling a child 'rude' when clearly they were?

Do children melt? Would this traumatise them? No! It might traumatise the pathetic mother, but honestly! If this is the worse thing this child ever comes up against she will be very lucky. Especially if she continues to behave in that manner.

As to My general rule is- only say things to children you would be prepared to say in front of their parents if they were standing there.
Well, I'd have been fine then, because I would quite likely have been sharper than the OP and if the parents hadn't spoken up pretty damn quickly then I'd certainly have let her know her behaviour was unacceptable.

iamsoannoyed - somehow I've missed that the other parent dictated that you couldn't demand any level of behaviour from the girl concerned in your home. That is clearly unreasonable and I wouldn't be comfortable either.
If it were my child I would be mortified and apologising.
This is such a subjective thing because it depends on how you said it - tone of voice, etc. I wouldn't use such a direct criticism to a child - but then I wasn't in the situation. Nothing is wrong with 5 year olds being told they are rude, per se. It's just a delicate issue with small children so whether it should be restricted to parents/family is a contentious one.
However, ultimately, the child did wrong so you delivered the right message, albeit not the way that I would have done necessarily. Horses for courses :)

I'd have stuck my foot out next time she ran past...

Seriously YANBU. I've no doubt the mum got an over exaggerated account. And we'd all leap to our kids defence wouldn't we?

Hopefully now her mum has the full account she will 'discipline' the little brat

I am rather surprised to have commented on this thread at the beginning, when everyone thought OP was perfectly reasonable in what she said, to come back and find that you are supposed to allow children to speak to you rudely and poke you in the stomach!
I would certainly not put up with it and can't see why anyone would. Hopefully the child will have learnt the lesson and discovered that it is unacceptable behaviour.
I would have expected the mother to phone and apologise.

You were entirely reasonable, OP.

Learning manners and social boundaries is an ongoing process for children. They can be as well parented as can be, and still sometimes come out with rude or unpleasant behaviour, and they're only going to know that they've crossed a boundary if they're told about it, firmly and clearly.

I remember being a child and having that red-faced heart-racing feeling after I did something wrong and was pulled up on it by an adult. It's part of the learning process.

I can't imagine any of the parents of DS1's friends hesitating to reprimand him in a similar manner to that described in the OP. And I'd be supporting them, not having a hissy fit about being the only one allowed to reprimand my precious child.

Hopefully the child in question will now have a mental note somewhere - "Don't poke adults and say rude things about their children."

Another YANBU.