Was I Unreasonable to this child?

[iamsoannoyed]

I was at a party with DD (aged 5)- she was a guest, not her party. It was at a place which has a soft play area beside the cafe (party rooms upstairs). The children had just played ten-pin bowling, and were coming through to play in the soft play area.

I was sitting with some of the other mums having coffee when one of DDs friends, whose mum I am reasonably friendly with and has been to our house/DD has been to hers, came over. She poked me in the stomach and said "haha, your kid came last". Those were her exact words.

I was a . I said to her "please don't talk to me like that, it's very rude. And you can't be the best at everything, so it's not very kind to tease people for being last.". I did not shout or raise my voice and did not get out of my chair.

She went red, ran off and I thought no more of it.

Her granny had brought her to the party. I don't think granny had noticed this exchange, but one of the other mums did and we both just raised an eyebrow. This little girl has been known to throw strops with the other children if she doesn't get her way and is also known as a bit of a madam at times, but is basically a normal little girl.

I got a phone call tonight from the girls mum to say she was very cross that I had "disciplined" her daughter. She thought I should have waited until I got home and then called her to raise my concerns.

I explained what had happened, and stated while I thought it was rude and fairly unpleasant behaviour on her DDs part and she needed a reminder that you shouldn't speak to adults like that, I didn't think it warranted a phone call home after the party (and hours after the "incident") as that was just making a mountain out of a molehill. Had the girl's mother been there, I would have mentioned what had happened.

I imagine her DD would probably have forgotten all about the incident by the end of the party, and would have been a bit confused as to what the fuss was about.

Was I unreasonable? I really genuinely don't think I was.

I would expect any other adult to have acted similarly if my DD had spoken to them like this (and would have been fairly mortified that she had done so).

TBH, I think I should just avoid play dates with DD and this girl, as I will not have a child in my house who I cannot even ask to behave in an acceptable manner in my own home in case her parents are upset by this.

Unless Mum has form for being a bit of a prat then pokey child must have been pretty upset when she got home. All my sensibilities agree that you were not unreasonable but my gut instinct is with team #pokeychild

YANBU, you did exactly the right thing and her mother/grandmother should be grateful. In fact we all should be grateful that you chastised the child, in the moment, making a direct link between her nasty comment and its impact on you/your child. Well done.

Well in that case I think that they will find that they will be invited to less play dates if this continues. Granny should not have gone to the car, she should have been near the little girl and attending to her.

They may even say 'ha, ha', your child came last' or whatever- I don't read that as calculated gloating, I read it as the sillliness that goes along with a birthday party.

Really? She deliberately sought out the mother of the child who came last, made sure she got her attention by poking her, and laughed at her child becoming last? Even if it isn't gloating, it's behaviour that needs to be nipped in the bud, immediately. Since the grandmother didn't do it OP, as the recipient, was perfectly entitled to make this one relatively mild comment.

the plain fact is it must have been upsetting for the child to have gone home and reported it and for the mum to call

But is that a good reason not to stop the child's behaviour? Suppose, for instance, your child is being hit by another. The other child may well be upset if you go over and tell her to stop, and may well go home and complain to her mother. But that isn't a good enough reason not to tell her off. The same would apply if she wasn't hitting another child but simply taunting her with coming last.

You do interfere with other children at your own risk because people are precious about their children- the child may indeed be rude and the mum may indeed be ineffective/over-protective

Obviously. But that doesn't mean that you are in the wrong to interfere.

that's the whole point, in this interaction I wouldn't be seeking to affect the child's future behaviour.

Really? Wouldn't you be aiming to stop her poking other adults in the vicinity? Or maybe to stop her going back and taunting your child directly? If being over-excited leads her to do this, there's no reason to think she won't spend the rest of the party taunting children who come last in the various activities.

OP YANBU! My nephew is like this and no-one was ever allowed to tell him off. Now he is at senior school his parents think he us being bullied, but what is happening is that the big kids don't put up with his shit and tell him so!

My MiIL and SIL have done nephew no favours and since I am not allowed to tell him off ( or even exclaim in shock when he tells his DFM to shut up) I will not have him in my house.

I would have no issue with someone saying what you said to my DS and I would have called you to apologise.

OP said above
I think I should distance us because I don't think that I can have a child in my home that I am unable to ask to behave in an acceptable manner (whether she's been rude, unkind or perhaps done something which is a bit silly/dangerous), but must call her mother later. I think it's more hassle than it's worth.

Absolutely.

Imagine the scene.... Several 6yos hanging off the curtains, throwing food, playing in mums bedroom or whatever unacceptable scenario you would imagine.

OP instead of immediately firmly saying "stop don't do that it's dangerous, rude, not allowed in my house etc" she has to wait until the unacceptable activity naturally ends says nothing while diverting their attention elsewhere, before waiting however long to contact mum. Mum hmmms and haws and generally excuses said behaviour.

Child remains blissfully unaware of unacceptable behaviour

Mum probably doesn't deal with it and if she does the connection between the actions and the "discipline" is weak at best and child will almost certainly repeat this behaviour elsewhere.

If basic boundaries and norms of polite behaviour are not set up at this age I think this child could be destined for many problems later in life with school and other authority figures.

All the evidence suggests that the child's mother probably is a bit of a prat, Ellie. I also think it's as likely that the child was in high dudgeon and cross rather than humiliated or hurt. And if she was upset, then maybe she'll think twice next time before behaving like that.

Yanbu! 'It takes a whole village to raise a child' and all that.

Good god some comments on this would be laughable if they weren't so bloody depressing. To suggest the OP was too harsh, or "humiliated" this kid when all she did was speak firmly when poked is just ridiculous. Children need boundaries. The OP was setting some perfectly reasonable ones. The child was being unpleasant, over familiar and aggressive. Best she learns this is inappropriate as soon as possible. Sounds from this thread like a good number of parents need to set some boundaries themselves, instead of making the assumption that everybody should put up with however their ill disciplined offspring choose to behave.

Thanks to all who have replied.

Tallesttower I think you have made some pretty unfair assumptions about me. I did not intend to "shame" or "humiliate" this child, I certainly did not take some perverse sort of enjoyment from telling her off. That would be plain odd, and it is a tad insulting that you would think that I would.

I don't see myself as "behaviour police" and had she not done this to me directly (i.e. done something to another adult when I was present), I would not have spoken to her about her behaviour as it would have been none of my business. I certainly wouldn't go round telling children at a party to eat all their food, ask before leaving the table etc, that would be rather silly.

I would have no problem with my DD being spoken to by another adult the way I spoke to this girl.

I did take exception to be being poked by a child (she did not pat me innocently, she definitely poked me- admittedly I was not hurt). I also think what she said was rude, and unkind. I accept I could have simply smiled and said something similar to that you would have, but I personally believe this kind of language to be more appropriate to pre-schoolers and merely pandering to misbehaviour in children of this age.

I'm not upset her mother phoned me, as I can understand why she would do so if her DD was upset. I am more surprised that she thinks only she should discuss any misbehaviour with her DD. I am also surprised she didn't ask me what had happened and wouldn't discuss what DD had said to her. I have spoken to one of the other mothers who was there, and she didn't think I'd been inappropriate or unduly harsh.

Sounds from this thread like a good number of parents need to set some boundaries themselves, instead of making the assumption that everybody should put up with however their ill disciplined offspring choose to behave.

I wonder why people always assume that anyone who would be less forceful than they are in correcting their children must be making a hash of it and bringing up delinquents.

Best she learns this is inappropriate as soon as possible.

Of course but there is more than one way to teach her and children can learn without being upset and embarrassed.

I would venture to suggest that the more effective parents are probably the ones who use the minimum chastisement. We don't usually look at someone who is vocally laying into their child and think what a wonderful parent they must be do we?

Who is vocally laying into a child?
That's right, no one.

Who is vocally laying into a child?

I didn't say anyone was

Excellent post, sarahschuster - I totally agree. OP, you were not being remotely unreasonable.

But Goldmandra, I didn't "lay into her" and I generally don't raise my voice to my DD. I don't tolerate rudeness though, and I believe that boundaries have to be firm, and that actions have consequences- such as being made to apologise to those you have been rude or unpleasant to. I don't think being told to "be gentle" when you've poked an adult is appropriate for a 5, nearly 6, year old.

I asked her to stop being rude, I didn't raise my voice in any way. I was annoyed though, and I don't think it was unreasonable to be.

I have asked a few others who were there if they thought I was harsh- most had not noticed the whole thing (and were surprised at the reaction) and the few who had said I hadn't come across as rude or threatening. Surely, if I had "laid into her" others would have noticed? I am fairly sure that one of the mothers who witnessed the incident would have told me if she thought I was out of line.

That said, I will not reprimand, or similar, this girl again as I have been asked not to.

However, given her behaviour generally (not just this incident) I think perhaps this girl could do with a few more boundaries. That is, however, only my opinion and her parents are free to parent her in the way they think best.

Agree with you, katie. Haven't seen anyone condoning 'laying into a child', and the OP certainly didn't.
We don't usually look at parents passively enabling their child's rude manners and think that they are wonderful either. If I see parents firmly and appropriately correcting their children, I think they look to be trying to do a decent job.

I don't think least or most chastisement is best. Appropriate is best and OP was appropriate.

^^This.

But Goldmandra, I didn't "lay into her" and I generally don't raise my voice to my DD.

No. You're right. You didn't.

My comment on a hypothetical situation has been misunderstood.

I said earlier that I would have said something similar.

I would have told the child not to poke me in the stomach and would also have told her that the way she was speaking wasn't nice. I wouldn't tolerate that behaviour from my own dc, so I certainly wouldn't accept it from someone else's.

I would feel it unfair to my own dc to accept poor behaviour from other people's children, that I would not accept from my own. How would I explain to my own dc why I was allowing another person's child to be rude to me?

As for the other mother, I would have told her that if she didn't want other parents to deal with her dds behaviour, perhaps she ought to accompany her own child in future!

That said, I will not reprimand, or similar, this girl again as I have been asked not to.

If a child came and poked me in the stomach and said that to me, I would reprimand them, as you did, regardless of whether the mother asked me not to. Unless of course she was there to deal with the situation appropriately herself. Their freedom stops where mine starts I'm afraid, and poking someone in the stomach is crossing right over that line.

And rather than simply acknowledge your error (and dare I say apologise) you simply say life is too short to bother finding out if you are wrong or not, or if you acted unfairly towards someone.

You are quite right adoptmama and for that I do apologise. To not bother to read back through your posts was flippant and rude.

Time for a holiday from Mumsnet I think.

*Sounds from this thread like a good number of parents need to set some boundaries themselves, instead of making the assumption that everybody should put up with however their ill disciplined offspring choose to behave.

I wonder why people always assume that anyone who would be less forceful than they are in correcting their children must be making a hash of it and bringing up delinquents.

Best she learns this is inappropriate as soon as possible.

Of course but there is more than one way to teach her and children can learn without being upset and embarrassed.

I would venture to suggest that the more effective parents are probably the ones who use the minimum chastisement. We don't usually look at someone who is vocally laying into their child and think what a wonderful parent they must be do we?*

I am not in favour of overly harsh chastisement, Goldmandra. I am not in favour of shouting, smacking or public humiliation. However, I think if you are the sort of person who thinks that what the OP did was too harsh, then there is no way that you are going to be the sort of parent who sets clear enough boundaries. For example, those people who suggested that the OP should just have said "ouch, why don't you go back and play" because anything else would just be too mean, would not have made it clear to the child in question that poking people in the stomach for attention and being unpleasant about other children was unacceptable. That so many people think simply telling a child their behaviour is unacceptable clearly and firmly is worrying. They are doubtless the same parents who jump on any teacher who has the temerity to expect good behaviour in school, or sit happily in public places turning a blind eye when their children behave appallingly.