... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

At the same time, I think reporting to SS is not the way to go about supporting either the mother or the children here, but I do feel that supporting them to achieve a better living environment is needed.

A friend of mine used to throw her woodwork and art projects in the ditch on the way home from school because her DM didn't want them cluttering her house up. My DM used to have ours displayed no matter how crappy they were or however much they cluttered up the house.
Mathanxiety I knew a family who were similar to who you describe. The boys had to be in or out. If the went out to play they weren't allowed back in till bedtime even if it rained because their DM didn't want them trecking in and out all day while she did house work. The children she minded had the same treatment. They all used to come and eat dinner in our lovely messy house.

I think that SS should most definitely NOT be involved.

On a personal level I cannot understand anybody who would live in squalid smelly conditions. I don't think I would have much in common with somebody who could.

I was brought. Up in a messy. House.

I HATED IT. I could never take friends back. And the worst of it was, when I left home at 15, I literally had NO clue 'how' to do housework.

I didn't KNOW that you were meant to clean a toilet. I didn't know how often you should wash up - so I would use all 4 plates, then all the saucers, then all the bowls, before washing up. Bearing in mind I was living alone, so the first plates would be mouldy by that point.

I had no clue that you could clean floors, much less that you were meant to. I couldn't remember the last time I had seen a Hoover used at home, so assumed it only needed to be done before people came round...

It's taken me YEARS to get into any semblance of a routine with housework, and yo get organised and to stop hoarding except birthday and Christmas cards, but they're in boxes in the loft.

I'm far from perfect - even after 17 years, it's a work in progress, which is hampered by my failing health and my crafting...the sheer STUFF you end up owning as a crafter who does multiple crafts is immense! That and books...

My house is filled to the brim overflowing if I'm truly honest - but I do a 6 monthly 'hoarder check' to throw away broken things, donate outgrown clothing to the preschools and the refuge, and sell other stuff on EBay. That helps keep my genetic hoarding tendencies to a minimum (I'm the fourth generation AT LEAST like this, and my Granddad claims to have memories of HIS grandparent's house being somewhat...crammed...with stuff).

I am still improving, and my washing up never sits for more than 36 hours now, no matter how bad my health is that day. My clothes are clean, if not always put away, but I have baskets they are piled into put in in the hallway.

Floors are clean now etc.

The turning point was a SW as mentioned up thread giving me 4 days to get my house spotless due to 'faeces in the toilet' which was misspelt as 'faces in the toilet' in the report, which I still find hysterically funny. The SW refused to believe that I had JUST cleaned the loo before her appointment (even DS2 told her, as HE was the one who had just pooed!!).

I too had stuff on every available surface. Now I allow my bedroom to be like that, but not the shared bits of the house. Front room toys are packed away daily, floor hoovered (table in front room), washing up done most days, floor mopped in kitchen every few days, bedding changed once a week for everybody, on a rota. And even my room isn't 'messy' or 'dirty', it's just very cluttered as it's a bedroom/craft room/personal library/study area for my College work all in an ordinary sized dining room...

Th biggest helpers were the motto 'never leave a room empty handed', finding out how often 'normal' was for each job threads on MN help me to constantly adjust that too, buying the right storage, having a place for everything, and doing my 6 monthly 'anti-hoarder' clear outs.

My DC's don't live in a show home, far from it, but they CAN bring their friends home without feeling embarrassed, it's cluttered but clean, and organised chaos rather than chaotic organisation...

I think personally that even by my standards when they were at their lowest, and I was potentially going to have my DC 's removed if the house wasn't tidied up in 4 days, this friend's house sounds, well, rank for want of a better word.

And it takes a right shithole for me to think or say that, given I WAS brought up in utter squalor.

This friend needs to do something. If the house smells, and guests are hovering over the loo rather than sit on it, and are avoiding eating there, then the untidiness has crossed a line into truly minging IMO & IME. Tbh with chicken poo in the kitchen, I can see why the other. 'Friend' who has the anger issues over a messy house needs to evaluate HER issues before starting on anyone else.

I am honestly flabbergasted at the number of posters thinking is acceptable for these children to live in squalor because they are "loved and fed". Fed out of a kitchen that the op cannot bear to eat out of and expected to use a bathroom that the op cannot bring herself to use. There is no excuse for a dirty bathroom it takes 5 minutes to clean a bathroom. By all means let the chickens in but sweep the floor after they have gone out again ffs. The friend sounds like a slob no matter how loving a parent she is, part of bringing up children is, or should be, providing a clean hygienic environment. I seriously cannot believe that the majority of responses had been that the other friends is being an unreasonable bitch. Sounds like she is the only ones actually concerned for these kids health. I wouldn't want children of mine to live like this and my kids wouldn't be staying over. I doubt most of you if you took the so called loving parent out of the mix , would want your children staying in this environment either.

I wouldn't report this; I wouldn't want to waste social services' time. I would put money on social services in our area not being interested although they would be duty bound to make investigations.

My house was very messy growing up. I couldn't invite anyone over it was too embarrassing. It contributed to me having no friends.

I really struggled to get everything done especially as my mum wouldn't let anything be thrown out. I managed to keep the kitchen and bathroom usable though and my clothes ironed.

I haven't read all this but wonder if going to a health visitor to say you aen't worried about the children but wondered what help is available. These children will suffer for this as they get older.Neglect is classed as abuse and this is a form of neglect.

if this IS reported to SS then from how you describe things they will laugh it out of the building. The most they might do is suggest she gete some support to help her get more organised. Many areas have parent support services now manned entirely by volunteers who will help with this kind of thing..., they dont actually clean but DO help a parent find their own way of being organised.

Is your friend happy amidst her chaos?

The children are by the OP's description, happy, healthy, thriving, have clean sheets, regular food and are doing well in school. There is organisation among the chaos.

I can relate a bit as I am dyspraxic and my organisational skillls are appalling. I have to write lists and tick them off or nothing would get done, I wonder if she just feels overwhelmed by it all....until I discovered list writing I could get so overwhelemed that I ended up doing nothing!

Obviously if there is chicken poo everywhere then there is more of a health issue but otherwise it's not a child protection issue. Just an organisational one.....

Neglected children can live in filthy houses.....but crucially that is not the only area of neglect, they might get inadequate food, have no sheets on the beds, not get washed, miss health appointments, and have little input from parents. I have seen houses so filthy and untidy that the children coukd not actuqlly get upstairs to their filthy beds for all the clutter and dirty washing on the stairs.....all sleeping downstairs in filthy clothes.

What the OP describes is NOT neglect.....just a dirty house which is untidy to boot. The children have lots of input, clean beds, clothes and adequate food.

Trust me I have seen true neglect. ....and what the OP describes is NOT neglect.

I used to babysit for three DCs (parents both professional/loaded) and the house was an utter shite tip. The eldest offered me a cup of tea and looked everywhere for a clean cup and eventually took his Jubilee mug out of the (dusty grimey) glass cabinet gave it a swill and used that, bless him! There were about forty empty dog food tins in a heap by the door, the place was beyond belief and the smell! I tracked the main culprit down to a bag of food shopping that was on top of an unopened book club parcel on top of a fridge. The food had rotted and drained into the parcel and the books and I threw the whole lot and it's neat fur coat into the bin. The receipt in the bag was from 13 months previously. When I put the younger ones to bed, they still had Christmas wrapping paper on their beds and this was the first week of July. One of them had a double bed but he only had one side of it as the other side was stacked with furniture! They seemed fit and well though and I was brought up in a less than pristine house but....the three boys really suffered in lots of ways but as other posters have said, it was when they started bringing friends home or visiting other tidier more well run homes that they really got the stick! I am OK with a bit clutter (although I think living without is mentally better for you) but E Coli is a punch line to a joke no-one wants to hear!

When I was growing up, we had dear family friends who always had a pile of dirty pots on the worktop by the sink. Once I was about 10 or so I took to washing up when I got there so there were clean mugs - I just couldn't bear the pile of plates.

Funny thing is, we got to know the family because the mother was our cleaner... Our house was sparkling, hers was a tip. I suppose it's a bit like builders who always have unfinished jobs at home.

Actually her house wasn't that bad, it was just washing up. And piles of laundry everywhere - always clean laundry but she loved ironing (weirdo) and would even iron her husband's and sons' underpants. But couldn't keep up with the amount of washing generated by a builder* husband and two small boys who were forever playing in muddy streams. (And couldn't bear to put anything away until it was ironed.)

• That's how I know about builders never finishing DIY jobs at home. And every builder I've known has been the same.

I'm not sure that washing bedding every few weeks is hygenic enough if you have chicken poo in the kitchen and the OP has said that bathroom is dirty, so this poor mum, isn't keeping this home clean enough for her dcs. I don't think social services is needed but also don't think that because they put on a happy face she is as happy as she seems. Being creative and fun doesn't mean you can't clean a loo for goodness sake. And clutter is different form dirt. this kitchen and bathroom are dirty. DCS are at school so how long does it take to clean a loo and couple of sinks.
She will be well aware that its not right it probably started when she had to small children and couldn't keep up . NOw its gone too far for her to know where to start. I'd tell her that as the children get older she is doing them no favours and should get it sorted.Not her clutter but at least fresh laundry, clean kitchen and bathroom.

I don't see that social services would be interested. There are parents in this country who beat and starve their children, who are addicted to drugs, who don't clothe their children properly etc etc. Social services doesn't even have the capacity to deal with those properly let alone someone who's just messy.

I don't see that there's anything you can do about it. Nobody likes being criticised and your friend will be hurt by any comment you make or any offer to help. I think you can only hope that as her children get older, they are so disgusted by it that they tidy and clean up themselves.

I have had social workers check my house numerous times - not because I was under any kind of investigation but because I have had two children placed with me through the family courts. Never bothered me at all.

As for our home, I am very keen on clean and tidy although the house itself does need redecorating etc. Social workers look for "signs of children" at homes and it comes up in reports. They will even look outside for bikes, trikes etc and toys inside. Our SW sat looking pained before pulling out various action mean etc from down the sides of chairs etc. The children used to have chats with her alone and she would stagger out half an hour later looking a mess herself.

I think your friend needs to clean up. It might be okay for her, but it isn't really on for the children particularly as they grow older. Surely she does not want them to feel ashamed of their home. As for calling Social Services, I would not even go there.

ikea - my mum did little deep cleaning and left food out in the kitchen, nicely warming up in the heat and had a dog that wee'd everywhere. She suffered continual stomach upsets but could not understand why although we kept telling her. You are lucky to have had such a strong constitution.

I sympathise with the stick insects upthread.

We had a period of finding the odd one on a picture frame.......

When they're babies they're very hard to contain when you clean them out!

We usually spotted them on the floor if we saw the cat staring at something with a hungry but slightly scared look!

Something potentially quite sinister happened with a health visitor when DS had his first home check.
She was a bit of a dragon, and wasn't happy at all with DS being in an Amby hammock, for one thing (he was!).

Anyhoo....she took mine and DP's medical histories, and I mentioned that DP's dyslexic and that I WAS on Ritalin for ADD before having DS.

Looked in the Red Book a few days after this visit, and saw that she'd written "...both parents have reading and writing difficulties..." on one of the pages that has a carbon copy. That she'd taken with her.....

I went postal. I'm a bloody journalist by trade and am currently a copywriter for a government dept.
DP is one of only three data analysts in the country that can do whatever the frig it is what he does.

DP mentioned this to his (now retired) child protection/welfare officer dad who just said:

"Get that corrected. Now."
Thankfully this HV was a temporary one who got replaced by a fab one who got on the case pronto.
That put the shits right up me (can you tell I'm a professional writer...?!) and just shows how twisted things can become.

The thing about cleaning standards is they are so subjective.

I've been in houses often with new babies in that have creeped me out because they were so clean the type of clean you get from having a full time cleaner, now that would concern me greatly (if they did not indeed have a cleaner).

The vast majority of omg your house is filthy allegations turn out to be very much just differing standards.

I've had calls saying it was unhygienic filth when it sounded very ugh like a very very genuine issue over the phone yet I go there and all that's seen is very mild clutter a little bit of dust and the bathroom perhaps is due a clean (of the 20 min type not the several hours scrubbing type) likewise the kitchen.

Friends and clients talking about how yucky houses were when they moved in usually quite gleefully said in a very much gossipy way when I've known that not to be the case.

The op mentions nothing about the children being smelly or dirty only that occasionally the house whiffs, it would be unusual in the type of house that would be a legit concern for the children not to smell and I don't just mean the smell of frying or cabbage.

Unless of course the house is dangerous that's normally the main reason why it would be an issue but dangerous houses often tend to have smelly household members.

Even the chicken thing is subjective.

I think the thing is that other people's dirt is grosser than your own. I've been in at least three friends' houses where I've slightly winced when using the loo or wondered if i could scrub my own cup before drinking out of it, as well as sat down on a load of dog hairs mixed in mud. It's not for me, although I am quite messy, I do like a nice clean kitchen and bathroom. But even though I do sometimes think 'ugh', I've never felt it was remotely a child protection issue not even the one with the cat poo everywhere (and even SS agreed that wasn't an issue, they had been reported and the case closed).

I don't think anyone is trying to say its great to bring children up where they may feel embarrassed, it's just a question of what's the best way to help the friend, if indeed the friend really needs helping.

Yes, standards of cleanliness are subjective. I personally would draw a line at poo in places it shouldn't be, a toilet I wouldn't want to sit down on, and cups and plates that made me think twice about accepting the offer of a drink or meal.

I think how one is classified as 'lovely' is subjective too. What goes into making someone 'lovely'? I suspect, this being Britain, that there are elements of class involved - maybe not primary factors, but present all the same. I realise this may be a controversial thing to say...

Is artsy and creative more 'lovely' than any other distraction someone could dream up to avoid being disciplined about keeping her children's environment clean? Would this woman be lovely if she spent her time on Pinterest or playing online games, assuming she shared her interest with the children (and the games were not x rated) and she changed their sheets and cooked for them every day? And I agree, the chicken thing is subjective. What if she kept a large dog or two of an unpopular breed?

As an aside, it's very interesting to me to hear from Sockreturningpixie and others that SS like to see signs of children's presence. My exMIL, mother of seven and owner of a mansion, would have failed this one. All seven of her children have issues.

Back to the matter in hand - The children will need separate bedrooms shortly if they are now 6 and 8. Has this thought crossed the mother's mind?

What goes into making someone 'lovely'?
being middle class of course - and i entirely agree with you that if someone was living like this without the MCness, then they would become filthy examples of 'broken Britain'

I don't really see this as a problem. As long as the children are fed, watered, cared for and happy, what difference does it make?

My mum and dad split when I was four and I'd spend weekends with my dad. His place was a tip. He used to have a coal fire and everything was covered in soot, he never cared much about laundry, left everything on the floor, rarely cleaned the kitchen or bathroom. My mum used to moan about the state of the place all the time, but he never did anything about it.

I didn't care. He was a brilliant dad, we had loads of fun when we were there and felt loved and looked after. When I got a bit older, I did feel a bit embarrassed bringing friends round, but it wasn't a major issue for me.

As long as everyone is happy, bugger the mess, imo!

Yes, standards of cleanliness are subjective. I personally would draw a line at poo in places it shouldn't be, a toilet I wouldn't want to sit down on, and cups and plates that made me think twice about accepting the offer of a drink or meal

Poo that's happened and cleaned up is sometimes a fact of life.

My mother would turn her nose up at cups and plates that I wouldn't even notice an issue with same as my neighbour may or may not, I wouldn't ever use a toilet in someone else's house without hovering but other people do. It's subjective.