... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

I grew up in a house just like this. As a kid it was fine, didn't think anything of it but I was very embarrassed as I got older and hated having friends over. My mum is a great mum though and I'd would have HATED the thought that someone could do something like this to my family (she was an LP too) and to be honest I am not sure it would have helped. We've tried over the years to sort it as we've become adults and any tidying is only ever temporary - she live alone and still lives like this (we were the excuse before).

It's frustrating as I rarely go to her house now, I won't let the kids stay there and although I love her and see her regularly if I'm honest it's driven a wedge in our relationship. I have become the total opposite as an adult and cannot imagine living like that.

So in short, I don't know what the answer is. I'm still trying to find it! But I think it may be a case of well meaning friends helping if they can (but I'd imagine it'd fall on deaf ears.) if the kids are well fed and cared for I think SS would be a horrible way to go.

Sounds like healthy squalor to me.

My house is a bit cleaner but I'm no clean freak - bathroom cleaned once a week. But there's pet hair and a plethora of mud due to building work and pets. I don't iron ever.

And because I'm a foster carer SS visit most weeks.

Yes what tallest said. House of squalor plus unfed, unwashed children = cause for concern.

Well cared for children in messy house =SS deeming it child friendly ime.

And in the summer our chickens wander in and out.

You don't eat the poo if they let one go on the floor - you pick it up with a bit of tissue.

to a lesser extent I recognise this - I am untidy in the extreme and I'm a very busy single parent so things don't get done the way they perhaps should. I am aware of the mess and so it doesn't get too bad (I think!) and I don't have animals so that's not an issue. I consider it my 'lifestyle choice' to live like this and I don't believe my children are at risk in any way - they are certainly not subject to food poisoning or dirty clothes or anything else. I don't believe that Social Services would be interested (and my ex husband has tried that one - more than once - and they've never even bothered to turn up on the doorstep, let alone do anything) so I doubt such a threat would do anything other than ruin a friendship. It takes all sorts and we are all different. If the children are happy and achieving well in school nothing at all will come of it.

If you or your friend does report her to the SS, don't imagine for a second that she'll get a single shred of practical help or support.

I was in the exact situation and all that happened was they took photos and the SW threatened me with trying to get the council to evict me.

Now we just don't let anyone in

SaucyJack, I have zero intention of reporting her to anyone, as should be clear from my posts! I think she's a brilliant mother.

I had a friend at school whose house was messy and some may say, dirty, she is a mum now and her house is also messy, however she is the loveliest person with the most amazingly turned out children (19 & 18).

As a slave to housework myself, I often question my motivates.
If the children are well and happy it's difficult to see what ss could do.
What does other Friend hope to achieve?
Surely this is a subjective matter anyway, what's mess to one person clearly doesn't bother another.
What makes her thinks she is in a position to judge and give ultimatums?

SaucyJack, I have zero intention of reporting her to anyone, as should be clear from my posts!

No, you personally don't sound like you're about to. Just trying to make the point to anyone daft enough to think that the SS are there to "help" in these circs that they won't. They'll just threaten her instead.

Mutual "friend"??? Whoa... Sounds truly "friendly".

saucyjack this is what happened to my friend. Basically they forced her to clean the house. She has some problems and things had got on top of her. But she is a good mum and it really upset her.

It sounds disgusting tbh . Immune systems or not is it really good for kids to be living in filth?

"Have you thought about doimg something really radical like reading the OP? Yes, we have offered help. She cheerfully refuses it and says they're happy as they are."

There you are then

It won't be long before the children feel too embarrassed to bring friends over. It's one thing for a house I be untidy (which mine almost always is) but quite another for it to be filthy. I agree with previous posters, what your friend does with her dining room is her business, some people don't even have one but if you can't move around then the house isn't safe. If it's filthy then it isn't sanitary. I think your friend may have a point. Sorry OP

Tell your friend to mind her own business and not to waste SS time and resources on a family that sound perfectly happy.

My house is a tip - i would like it not to be but i hate housework, my DD is perfectly happy thankyou very much. Her bedroom is cluttered too, as is her playroom - god help me if i throw anything away!

I think you and your friend should be direct and honest with the dirty house friend.

Don't 'threaten ss' like friend suggested, but tell dirty friend what you have said on here about her and her house. Tell her how you think she is an amazing mum and lovely friend etc, but also be honest about how you don't want to eat/drink at her house, or use her toilet because it is all so unhygienic, not just untidy.

If she's always lived like that, she probably doesn't even notice it, and will be blissfully aware of the effect it may have on her daughters as they get older.

Be honest and blunt, but kind.

I used to visit a house like this & would get around it with a few tricks. I would accidentally on purpose drop a plate of biscuits on the floor & then vaccumed the carpet out of embarrassment. They had pets but never ventilated the house so I would by opening a few windows while I hoovered! Somehow my hoovering extended to the whole house!

I have v sensitive skin & I would always itch when I visited their house but I loved going so I had to make it bearable for me. I would do a mini clean of the bathroom when I visited the loo by chucking bleach down the loo & cleaning the sink. I wouldn't clean the bath as it would be too obvious.

As I am really clumsy I could get away with it by dropping tea on the floor / counter & then offering to clean it up. I have very fond memories of this family but their cleaning routine was none existant & caused my skin condition to flare up. I felt embarrassed to say anything directly to them, I know that it sounds a bit barmy.

If they are happy and healthy then I can't see that it's that big an issue. Loads of kids don't invite friends home for all sorts of reasons. It's hardly the end of the world. I never used to invite friends round as I lived further out than them so would go into town where it was more interesting.

I don't think she's a bitch. Just concerned but SW visits would be far more harmful I reckon than this.

if you rew up in a messy chaotic house and did it affect you badly?

Yes and Yes

I think the "friend" should mind her own frigging business.

I have a mate like this - her house is utter chaos. She has three wonderful and very happy and healthy children and an ever-changing menagerie. My ds loves going over there to run about Huck Finn-style.

Frankly, I am in deep admiration of her ability to not give a damn.

I knew a couple of kids who were brought up in a similar situation and they have grown up to be wonderful caring adults who adore there mum and have a lovely sunny happy go lucky attitude. I also know someone who was raised in an almost sterile environment and was never allowed to play with anything messy and wasn't allowed to have friends round in case they made the house untidy. He grew up in a miserable home and has turned into a miserable, selfish adult. Both are extreme examples i know but shows clean isn't always happy and who are we to judge how others live.

I grew up in house like this, my parents were both pretty untidy, and hoarders. I loved our rambling, eccentric, messy-but-full-of-love home. My parents were brilliant parents BTW!

Far from stopping us from bringing friends round, all the local kids flocked to ours as a) My mum was so hospitable- open door policy for our friends, and b) Most of them were escaping their house-proud parents who did not allow them to make any mess! At ours they could play unhindered, my Mum did not mind toys out all over the floor, painting & crayoning and endless dens in all sorts of places!

I admit I am pretty untidy myself, not to the same extent as my house is much smaller so I have to keep on top of things, but my children are well fed, clothed and loved so I am not too bothered by it.

I look back on a lovely childhood in that messy house and I feel really lucky! Its a case of different strokes for different folks!

In our area, social care would indeed be interested in house conditions like this and would be telling mum to get it cleaned up and sorted. Apart from the hygiene aspect, the impact on the children socially if they go to school smelly, and the lack of space for play, it is a fire hazard. Yes, we would offer help to clean up but ultimately it is mum's job!
Maybe offer to help again and if she says they are fine, gently point out that it's not fine for the children and does need to change.

I have a friend a bit like this. The state of the kitchen makes me gag. But her dc are well turned out, good at school, plenty of friends. I think my friend grew up in a messy house and she just isn't aware how to clean, what's hygienic. Her dc are never ill. I think they've had a couple of issues with people not wanting their dc to go to play there. But apart from that no impact on the dc.