... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

Are there used needles laying around, accessible drugs, maggots, crap on walls, animals suffering in pain, are the kids rarely fed, are the kids safe?

Is that how low the bar is onesie?

Has "friend" Z got another agenda? Is there any ill-feeling between her and your messy friend?

Personally, I'd give messy friend a heads-up and then offer help once more, then sack Z right off.

'SS obviously wouldn't take kids into care in situations like this. They might be able to help the mum to learn about keeping her home to a more hygienic standard though or accessing support she might need to enable this.'

HAAHAAHAA!

I dunno; I grew up in a messy house (not quite as bad as OP describes, but dog shit everywhere, kitchen and bathroom filthy. As a teen I would try to keep it clean,but it was a losing battle. I was embarrassed to bring people over. In our case it was a reflection of wider unhappiness which wasn't obvious to all outsiders; I wonder if OP's friend is as happy as she seems.

If there are no issues like that, then I do think houses where children live should be reasonably clean: to me, that is part of showing love and respect (note: I am referring there to real filth, not the clutter that we all have).

Learning to be clean, tidy and organised are important skills for the modern world and it is parents' duty to instill those skills.

My first boyfriends parents' house was like this, he would laugh it of as them just being really messy. The actual problem was they were both alcoholics and they spent all their time and money drinking themselves into a stupor - but you wouldn't know this unless you spent a lot of time with them.

It's not acceptable and it's not normal. I don't believe that people live like this because they are just messy, I think it's a symptom of other problems.

Saintly those pictures are very interesting thank you.my house is a complete state but we have had portage workers ,speech therapists and a school visitor come round so hopefully it's not so bad still stresses me out thougj

I have a friend who lives like this.

Their house is a place of creativity, love and happiness. Their DC are fabulous.

It's not for me, but the thought that SS ought to be involved is risible!

snap - and don't worry autumn - in your situation they often worry if your house is too tidy (more pressure, sign that you might struggle with a disabled child as well etc) I remember a SALT telling me when ds1 was about 5 that it was good that I didn't 'need' to have a tidy house as well as I had enough to cope with.

Thanks saintly dd2 is four and has autism

If SS did inspect they are unlikely to remove the kids, except short term as a pp who is a social worker said. However they would not help her clean up they would tell her to get it done now or else. This would mean a lot of stress and upset for her, and if she does have some hoarding issues she would find it really hard having to get rid of her things really quickly like that.

Your mutual friend would quake at our house atm. Massive building works, dust everywhere, builders, fridge in the study, washing machine in the hall

yes autumn - ds1 is severely autistic. I know that SS do worry about people who have a severely autistic child and 'need' a perfect house. Because lets face it our kids can do quite a bit of damage - doesn't help if you have the type of personality that can't cope with that. Obviously there's a stage at which is become unacceptable - but it really is an extreme. We had a DFG so I've had SS inspecting every window, door and corner of my house - they weren't bothered by the lack of perfection in house keeping.

Whether the sw would help or not is down to the actual sw. I know one who would get down on her hands and knees to help a mum out to try to ensure her child stayed with her rather than having to go into care but I also know others who would probably stand there looking around distastefully and trying to block out the smell. You know the exact state of the house not us but I get the feeling you are not comfortable in it, ask yourself if that is your standards being too high or the house too bad and then deal with it accordingly, if you feel the house does cross the line you need to get firm with her that something needs to be done for the children's sake.

I highly prefer a tidy house. Can say that it definitely does increase stress levels dealing with messiest child on earth.

House isnt like a showhome but try to keep it tidy as 3 of us in small 2 bed flat could get very difficult fast.

To be brutally honest.

I work for a solicitors. we dealt with a probate case where there was SEVERE clutter - same if not worse than OP's friend. uncleaned crockery, rodent infestation etc. The woman in question had a credit card addiction (don't we all?!), but was also disabled in some way - I think it was slightly physically but she still had a job. well the house clearance people had a field day.

I think long term if there IS severe filth (eg maggots, rodents etc) then of course that can be detrimental to health and SS may then well be brought in to help.

I sort of think someone should have a quiet word with friend - do the dishes have mould on them for example? maybe she needs a rota or an organisation mode for what to do when. maybe she finds cleaning products expensive etc.

My mum was a bit like this (only she cleaned once a week) very prone to clutter.

Maybe one of you could offer to say clean there say once a week for an hour or just help the friend to clean. in a NICE way of course.

It does sound as if the friend is lacking in self-confidence/depressed etc - for ages I was a bit like this (very untidy) and I WAS depressed (also very lethargic due to low thyroid, undiagnosed at the time).

I think the friend needs a nudge and support.

Is the idea of getting a cleaner in for just one hour a week a possibility?

I know the main hurdle is the friend's reluctance to address the issue, but I'm thinking if some of the reluctance is caused by it knowing where to start, then getting a professional, objective person in might help.

Sorry....by NOT knowing where to start.

It sounds like the kind of happy house I'd feel comfortable in - I hate it when you go to a super clean home and are afraid to breathe!

It sounds like she's on top of the essentials to me if the bath is clean and the food prep areas are cleaned before use.

They are HAPPY. Tell your other friend to butt out. Unless the children are anxious and embarrassed about it, there's no issue.

I can't quite believe that the other day there was a thread discussing whether or not to inform SS because a child seemed to be always in hospital and there was a slight suspicion of Munchhausens, and people all rounded on the OP and said no, mind your own business, and here we have a thread where people actually think it might be appropriate to call SS because some children, who are clean, happy and well fed, live in a messy house.

Really?

To be fair, though, Gotto...Munchhausen's is a bit harder to prove than a mouldy plate.

Not in favour of SS here at all, but just saying why the other thread might have been a bit more hands-off.

minou I agree where to start may be the friend's problem as she is overwhelmed!

I grew up in a very messy house, the cat was sick under the table and the sick became hard and stayed there for years, most of the kitchen cabinet doors had fallen off, you cound't see the children's bedroom floor (I have vivid memories of the house but I have no idea what sort of floor the bedroom had) me and my brother were allowed to paint on our bedroom walls, we collected bones of dead animals, my brother (at the age of about 4/5) used to make scultpures out of bird skulls often the skulls still had feathers on, we had no pyjamas we just went to bed in our day clothes, I don't remember our duvets being changed, we certainly only had one duvet cover each, we didn't wash our hair and we didn't use soap, when I was a baby I slept in a draw.

I have very happy memories of my childhood, I think that the people who say that it is unfair for children to grow up in very messy/dirty houses are wrong, you are projecting your own feelings onto the children. If you grow up in a messy house you don't actually feel disgusted by piles of washing up or dog hair or mouldy food in the fridge.

Our house was such fun, we used to put mine and my brother's mattreses on the stairs and slide down in sleeping bags, we rarely slept in our beds we would lie on the floor in amongst all the mess or sleep on top of the chest of draws or we'd make hammocks from our sheets and sleep in there. We looked after the school stick insects for half term but they escaped and started breeding so we had random stick insects all over the house.

I am now a mother myself and I keep my home much more tidy than the house I grew up in, we have great storage and I have a lovely partner (things my mother didn't have) it does make me feel uneasy when our home is very tidy, a low level of mess makes me feel relaxed and at home.

I have an amazing imune system, I have never had d+v or food poisening.

I think as your friend's children are older it isn't a problem, I would worry about a toddler being in a home where there were lots of choking hazards or unstable piles of objects which could fall down and squash a small child. It is possible that the lack of chemical cleaning fluid used is actually benificial for the children.

....I'm loving the random stick insects!

It's good to have this alternative viewpoint.

Looking back, was anyone ever rude to you or your mum, Ikea (also notice you mention good storage...!)?