... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

It might be worth having a word with the interfering, officious bitch who thinks she's entitled to threaten someone who's supposed to be a friend. WHat's going on in her life to make her behave in such a bullying way?

Sounds like my parents house and I had a fab childhood. I would warn your nice messy friend who sounds like a fab parent to not associate with this other woman or allow her into her home. If I was you I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who lords it over other people like this. I had friends who came from immaculate homes that were beaten by their parents and never encouraged.

Same here Fuzzybee. Three girls literally turned out into the street after breakfast and told when lunch and dinner would be available. They couldn't go home and had to beg to go to the loo in other people's houses. House had to be perfect when their father came home. Then they were told to fuck off to bed. Ended badly.

If you want a terrifying account of what can go on behind the scenes in a spotless house read once in a house on fire by Andrea ash worth but it may trigger if you have experienced domestic violence

Noone is saying the woman's house should be spotless though. Just not dirty.

I don't think it's helpful to scaremonger about social services. I know some people have shared their personal experiences but there are some crazy blanket statements being made.

That said, a cluttered, messy house is not a cause for concern. Shit all over the place and the bathroom so dirty that someone cannot bathe is a problem but it doesn't sound that bad. Some people like to live with piles of laundry on the sofa and dirty dishes on every surface; I'd hate that but I recognise that people have the right to live the way the want without professional input, as long as they're not harming themselves or others. Social workers (and similar) should not be projecting their personal values onto clients.

Blimey, Mathanxiety, that's awful.

Social workers (and similar) should not be projecting their personal values onto clients
the problem is they do, and it might be good for OP's friend to be aware of that.
I shared a bit of our story earlier in the thread, and I can honestly say that my house was not 'that bad' - but this SW went into every fine detail eg. there was a skidmark in the loo which became 'faeces in the bathroom'. What would worry me is that if the other 'friend' did call SS and this messy friend had one of these clean freak women round projecting her own values onto this family, it could end up bad all round. Especially chickens wandering in and out of the kitchen! no offence i love chickens.

I would be more worried about the other friend.

She sounds a little insecure/controlling.

Where are the details of her life ?

Nickname that's terrible; have you ever found out what DSS really said to SW ?

Ditto Nigella

Nigella Sweeping statements are harmful. Some poor social workers may project their values onto clients but not all social workers. I appreciate you had a bad experience and that is unacceptable but don't tar us all with the same brush, thanks!

OP here. thankyou for all the opinions. I will speak to mutual friend and try to presuade her to be less confrontational, I think, then maybe ask other friend again if she'd like some help around the home.

I'm not sure if theres been something in mutual friend's past to give her a horror of dirt but she does seem to have a very emotional, almost angry reaction to friend's chaotic home.

When I go into people's homes and its very messy & cluttered, my 1st thought is there is some depression going on somewhere, and theyve given up on home as they feel unable to cope. As a friend Id try to broach subject with them - not in any heavy way. & Id wash the bloody dishes whilst I talked! Ive done that before, not made a song or dance about it. Just - DO. OP your other friend is being nasty and judgmental. Does she like her own life? Id say different if the children were neglected, but theyre not. Yes the mess & clutter should be addressed, but NOT in the way your other friend has suggested

Screw this mutual 'friend', she's a nasty snake in the grass. Got to the mum in question.

It sounds like a lovely loving home.

I think I prefer the sound of that to some sterile houses I've been into where you're worried about sitting down in case you dent a cushion.

If you have free range chickens every so often if the doors are open in the summer they will do a break-in.It's no big deal,it really isn't.I've found an odd chicken under the dining room table or perched on the edge of the bath in the past,and we've all survived.

Messy friend sounds like she's got her priorities right to me. Other one probably seething with jealousy or something. Op, tell us more about her. I bet that's where the really interesting story is in all this.

I wish people would learn to be a bit more discriminating about reporting to SS as we all know they are overloaded with cases. Too many trivial cases clog up the in tray and mean that genuine cases of neglect and abuse are not given the time and attention SW's need to give them in order to properly protect the most vulnerable. It's like calling an ambulance because someone has a cold. A waste of scarce, much needed public resources.

If the children are happy, healthy, emotionally content, clean, well fed, attending school regularly etc then is it really worth causing lasting trauma to a happy family just cos you disagree over lifestyle? Your friends home is not one where I'd be happy living, but then I've never wanted to live in a NY style skyscraper, in a bus, or on a remote island either.

I'm not trained in neglect. I wouldn't know whether a case was trivial or needed giant red alarms. I wouldn't know if abuse was genuine or just a little telling off. That's why I would always report any worries to SS. It's not our place to decide if something is trivial, extreme or okay because we could get it wrong.

flowery one persons worries are another's judgements sometimes surely? And I will say it again- a messy house does not equal abuse or neglect. Interestingly as another poster pointed out up thread, is the other friend a tad jealous because her seemingly unable to cope buddy has more intelligent children? There is a woman at our school who has three really,really bright kids and quite a few of the other parents were actually shocked when they found out this woman's children were all top of the class in all subjects. Why? Because the mother doesn't seem intelligent,her house is a tip and her children are unkempt. She spends a lot of her time with her children just doing things and reading with them. The housework isn't that important to her. I personally need to be more organised at hone to feel comfortable but not everyone does and why should they??

I don't know about worries vs judgements. I've just said I don't know anything about recognising neglect so would err on the side of caution and report people if I was concerned enough to consider it. I don't know if that would apply in OPs case because I haven't seen the house obviously. I just think it's bad advice from a previous poster to tell people to make their own judgements about abuse or neglect when they may know nothing it. It's always best to report to people who are trained to recognise these things than it is to under report and to potentially leave a child in a dangerous or sad situation.

Both my parents are hoarders (separately now though). Our house was always a tip, kitchen and bathroom were kept bearable but the house wasn't hoovered or sheets changed from one month to the next, until sister and I were old enough to do it ourselves. Minimal clothes/school uniform - not through active neglect, but just a lack of awareness of what was needed. Would never have dreamed of having people over, when friends called round I'd pretend I was out to avoid letting them in /making up some excuse over why they had to stay outside.

I tried to clean and tidy up so many times, got into fights with my dad over it (grabbing round the neck and threatening but not actual fisticuffs) as it was his house and his way - he was too busy doing anything else but sort the house out. I now own my own house and have been left with so many issues about keeping it clean and tidy.

When I was little I'd daydream about waking up and finding the house sorted out, like a 'normal' house. If someone had reported my parents to SS it may well have launched them into action - they knew the state of the house was wrong but they managed to ignore it or justify it for all those years. Looking back now, I wish they had. I'm sure nobody would have looked at my sister and I and thought we were neglected, but we were really unhappy every day until we went to uni and never went back. My dad has transformed his house now his new woman lives there - he was obviously capable of doing it, just lacked the motivation.

Flowery, I think that's OK if you are worried about actual abuse or neglect. NOT if it's just lax housekeeping. Reporting anything you fancy to the authorities just in case is an Orwellian nightmare.

I wouldn't know if it was lax housekeeping or if the lax housekeeping was a sign of something else like neglect. At what level does it cross over into neglect? I don't know so I'd pass the information on to someone who does. That's why I'm saying it's dangerous advice to leave it to the judgement of people who don't know. Lax housekeeping could just be someone who prioritises other things. Or it could be a sign of problems. I wouldn't know the difference so wouldn't take the risk.

I just wrote a personal post about how I had been on the receiving end of a SS case which went horribly wrong. Whilst writing it I read clg199's post and felt really sad for you. The Internet messed up as I was posting but I don't have the heart to write it all again. The main reason being that there are so many cases in which children are missed and on the flip side many,many cases you will never hear about where SS make mistakes, really bad mistakes and get things horribly wrong.Mine was one of them. It doesn't make any difference reading our experiences as flowery says they would rather report it than have it in their conscience if they left it. But my home was not messy or dirty nor was my child neglected in any way yet assumptions were made about me and they were very wrong when in fact to was my immaculately dressed seemingly intellectual clever ex partner SS should have been talking to especially after I had reported him twice for DV and fears about leaving my child with him after we split. Being a young parent apparently made all my opinions and fears invalid. I received a formal apology a year later and ex partner has no parental rights nor do his family have any visitation rights. This was a very long time ago,more than 20 years but after reading things on MN I think people still have issues with SS. DD is having a fabulous life as do i and we have never looked back but if I hadn't fought my corner god knows what would have happened.

I agree Fanjo.

DD1 had a friend until about age 10 whose house was not just a tip but the kitchen table was piled with medicines of different kinds. They had several large dogs who had the run of the house, lay on furniture and beds, shook themselves off when they got in side on a rainy day, kitchen always a few days behind on dishes and washing of pots and pans, lots of clutter from hoarded magazines and newspapers and laundry that never got attended to.

This friend's mother was a nurse and very much a hypochondriac, hence the huge supply of medicines, and there were also boxes of bandages and gauze and plasters and tubes of ointment for every conceivable itch and scratch and rash. DD1 once fell and grazed her knee and came home with a humongous, new fangled antibiotic plaster all over the very small scratch.

The 5 oldest DCs of this woman had all done really, really well in school and always looked very well turned out. When I went to a mum and daughter book club meeting at her home I was very surprised to see the state of it. She had cleared the couch and a few square feet of the living room carpet had been hoovered but otherwise the house was really bursting with far too much crap. DD1's friend was the 6th and youngest in the family; she was the only one to struggle in school and was eventually diagnosed with depression. She used to love spending time at my house, which, while untidy thanks to being quite small and having 5 DCs bouncing off the walls, wasn't in the same league as her own. She and DD1 had a few major arguments when they were both 10, before this girl was diagnosed with depression, and her level of anger during an argument and tendency to give DD1 the silent treatment after a fight eventually alienated DD1 so they drifted apart.

OP, I suspect all of what you describe will start getting to the children when they are a little older and I think it will hurt them. It's all right to be a free spirit but not if you have adopted that persona in order to avoid a bit of housework done consistently.