... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

Chaos isn't good for kids. Btw social workers don't take kids into care just for filthy houses.

my sister sound similar to the Op's friend. house is large, messy & shambolic, with occasional livestock wandering into the kitchen. Their bathrooms, indeed their entire lifestyle, gives DH the heaves.

Fortunately my DSis is securely married, uber middle class, landed, articulate and assertive. She would eat any busy bodies and SWs for breakfast.

I could not live like she does, but then I remember that her children are tall, fit, strong, kind, clever, loving and all round wonderful.

A tidy house does not a good parent make. She may live in a shit tip, but she is doing something right, so what gives anyone the right to judge?

Happened and cleaned up fine. Left to fossilise not so fine.

Messy and chaotic homes are not the same as filthy homes.

I'm not sure what gipping is, but it does not sound fun

What Artex said.

What Artex said.

I thought you didn't take a compliment well there!

I have a friend who has lived like this for years , still does infact . Her two daughters are lovely well adjusted intelligent people . I still cannot help sometimes feeling a tiny bit sorry for them having spent their childhood in conditions that would make a lot of posters on here pass out , but they are loved , clean , happy and have a lot of fantastic friends who enjoy spending time where they live , so whilst i cannot imagine living as she does , i accept that there are far more important things in life to get het up about .

I think parents can be lovely and playful and present and feed their inner lives and intellects and those of their children AND ALSO have bathrooms that don't make visitors gip.

I agree, yet I also think the fact that my sister's bathroom is rank doesn't make her a bad parent. Not perfect, but then who is? I have a clean bathroom (usually) but I am sure I am an imperfect parent in other ways (in fact, I know I am). A grubby home with happy kids does not require a SW referral.

But should your nephews and nieces or their friends have to use a filthy bathroom? What is stopping her from cleaning it, if not for herself then for her family? If she went on a holiday and found a bathroom like the one her family uses at home, how would she react, and if badly, why?

I grew up in a fairly messy house (although not particularly dirty), and since I left home my mum has become even less concerned with housework. The only effect it's had is to turn me into a bit of a clean freak...

My parents had an incubator in the kitchen for the hens. It wasn't seen as particularly odd in the 1960s in a rural area! Our house was untidy - full of books and toys and maybe a bit of muck got trailed in, on the floors. I loved it. Friends loved coming round, too - they liked the more relaxed atmosphere. We had three large downstairs rooms and two of them were full of junk to the point we didn't use the rooms. We lived in the large living kitchen.

I had one friend at primary school, who was an only child and had one of those obsessive-compulsively tidy houses. Even as a child, I picked up the feeling her dad was a bit of a control freak, but nothing sinister. Years later, in the 6th Form one day, it was the end of term and out of the blue my friend starts crying and can't stop. Turned out her dad had been abusing her and her mum for years (physical not sexual I think) and the uber tidy house, in retrospect, and his petty tyrannies people ignored, should have been seen as a warning flag.

My own house is vaguely clean but not at all tidy. My kids are happy, healthy, creative, interesting, well rounded people.

I think a constant dirty bathroom and kitchen is an issue.

My dm was clean, tidy and we had order in the house. I run my home the exact same way.

My aunt was never very domesticated.Her kitchen sink was piled with dishes, the surfaces were cluttered, the toilets were never cleaned and brown inside and they always smelt. While I enjoyed spending time with my cousins I was grateful to go home. I would have hated living in that environment.

I had a friend who lived in squalor. It was awful. Her clothes smelt, she was scruffy and her house was upside down. She left home at 15, as did her younger siblings.