... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

SS won't action someone having bad housekeeping habits. If the children are happy, healthy, clean, achieving etc then there is no cause for concern.

^^This. However, if it tips to the kids being dirty/smelly/having bed bugs/lice or health concerns than they would naturally have cause to look into why a parent would not correct the source of the problem.

A messy house and a dirty house are not the same with lots of scale in between. I've been in many houses where people have allowed pets to shit all over the floor/beds, have bugs/mice etc from not cleaning up. Its hard to think this is not reflective of other issues going on for the family.

i used to clean (!) for a woman who lives like your friend. the children were often in my house too and commented on the mess. wtf!!!!!!! their mum is a masssssssive hoardererereerer (food over 10 years out of date (nothing else i could mention else it'll out her seriously).

the children didn't seem remotely bothered about it, so i did what i could but unless there's a ding ding a-ha! moment (as oprah calls them) this mum is unlikely to change her living habits. nor would she qualify for homestart (for e.g.) as the kids are school age.

support but don't encourage?? it's difficult to know what to do. a friend of mine lives in that mess now and it's disgusting and there's obviously something deep-seated going on to be honest (obscene levels of chaos) but until they ask for help it'd be horrendous to have something inflicted on you. (i was also in this position but i had my ding ding a-ha moment and it changed me!)

We had a german exchange student staying with us, unfortunatly his visit coincided with our beloved aged dog becoming incontinent, the dog (big lab/alsation/mongral type dog) would walk around the house pissing, luckily we had wooden floors (although the piss went through the floorboards so it wasn't all that great really) we mopped up after the dog, but probably didn't use any chemicals, the poor german kid found it all very hard, I went to stay with him and he lived in a pristine wooden cabin.

My mum was a really cool mum, my friends would come and drink tea and chat with my mum, I went to an alternative school so all our parents were a bit odd in one way or another (the german kid had to do 3 hours of violin practise every night, I'd prefer dog piss personally).

We lived on a street where half the parents were single mums and most had houses simalar to ours, the other half of the houses had organised clean houses and 2 parents, trips to disney land and that sort of thing, the kids from the smart families used to tease us a bit but we just used to say that your not a better person just because you have a tidy house/smart car/ the kids from the messy houses have all left the town we grew up in, more than half of us live abroard, the careers we have are really varied and mostly interesting, the kids from the smarter families have all stayed in the small town we grew up in and many of them seem unsatified with their jobs/lifestyles. I think it is good to have a home enviroment that isn't too organised/sorted as I think that it is possibly harder to take risks and leave the comfort of your home/upbringing behind.

Why is everyone assuming that because this woman finds lots of things in life to be more important than hoovering, she must have MH problems?

Have any of you actually read the first para of the OP:
My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

Give me that sort of MH any day!

Probably because they are aware people with MH problems can also be good parents etc. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

It seems like the OP knows her well and would possibly be aware of any mental health issues?

I have a friend who is similar and her DD has never been ashamed of her house. In fact her friends love it - there's always dressing up clothes and cool craft activities and the mum doesn't mind them taking over the kitchen to experiment with recipes. They think it's quite refreshing. I wonder how many of us will be lying on our deathbeds saying 'I wish I'd spent more of my life cleaning.' < slattern >

OP your friend sounds like my kind of woman :)

SS won't action someone having bad housekeeping habits
actually depending on the area, they might well.
your friend sounds like a great mum but she might need warning if the other 'friend' is going to report her.

really well i had this crazed SW who wanted to put my children on the CP register for me having a messy house.

and no it was not 'that bad' before you ask, in fact the house in the OP sounds worse.....

Nigella I had the same experienxe as you.
My house was minging granted, but there were no.flies/maggots/mice etc, and it didn't smell (others have confirmed that)
We had less clutter than in the op too.

If someone reported her they would put the worst possible slant on it to make it sound right to report her, they would say the are concerned kids are neglected. Then SS would probably come and inspect. It is no skin off their nose to order her to tidy up, so they would.

It might depend on the individual SW nigella - maybe you had a clean freak. There is one professional involved with ds1 (disabled) who I would be unwilling to have in my house because I know she is completely anal about cleanliness and she doesn't like me

Luckily everyone who has been in has been of a more balanced outlook.....

it does depend very much on area. round here it would appear that a great deal of families have had ss intervention for low level reasons.
the amount of children in foster care is astounding.
my children were 13 when it happened, and I was told in no uncertain terms that had they been much younger they would have been removed at once.

and yes the SW was a clean freak you could see the disgust on her face, and honestly it really wasnt that bad!
she put such a spin on it too with her choice of words.
for example a table with some cups and papers etc on it became 'debris strewn across every surface'
my daughter's unbrushed hair was 'matted'
and so on.
it was a very bad time.
i still jump when the door goes.

nigella it sounds awful and this is why I think op should take this threat from the "friend" seriously and have a talk with her messy friend. She needs to be aware people think this way.

You can really make the place look better by decluttering, or even hiding your clutter and a quick zoom round with the hoover and duster.

there's hardly a thread on aibu which doesn't result in at least one poster 'diagnosing' mh problems of some sort

yes livelablove i agree OP should try to help her friend now before the knock on the door comes.....
as a minimum the beds have to be nice and the bathroom and kitchen clear and clean.

I have to say I think people have gone cleaning mad in the past few years....however I do think a sort of intervention is needed from her friends to help her tackle old piles...and create more space...

I think she should be challenged to a clean up, and if she doesn't like it, go back to normal..for the childrens rooms what about saying to them you are doing a car boot and if they picked out toys they could sell them and get money or offer to chairty and so on...

nigella i really sympathise with you, i've had dealings with social workers most of whom were lovely but one was just awful. i firmly believe she took exception to something i'd done in the past and decided i didn't have a maternal bone in my body (i do, most of them actually), so wrote up a really biased (in favour of xp) report. it was nothing like the actual situation so i demanded asked that she could be accompanied by a witness next time and she changed her tune. irrelevant really but i suppose it backs up what some have said about course of action depending on SW.

If you grow up in a messy house you don't actually feel disgusted by piles of washing up or dog hair or mouldy food in the fridge.

I have to say that for me that is not true, Ikea. Growing up around dog shit, for example, had made me almost phobic about hygiene. I literally have nightmares where I am rolled around in dog shit and can't get it off.

Don't wish to sound melodramatic! But it is not the case that children are always unaffected by dirty homes.

same vampyre - for example she asked me why had left the ex, I told her cos of DV, well she phoned him and he denied it right? (even tho it was on police record complete with charming photos of my face)
so in the report she wrote
'nigellasdealer has accused her ex of DV but he assures me this is not true'

also I had picked up scabies from handling straw which didn't help, you could just see the disgust and horror on her face, scabies being a 'dirty' disease ofc.

I don't think that how messy your home is can always be used to determine if you are a good parent or not. It's just not important in the same way to everyone. Sometimes the most immaculate families are incredibly unhappy and have things going on but no- one ever knows. If your friend is happy and her children are too as you say then personally I would steer the other 'friend' away from doing anything which doesn't concern her. On the other hand if your good friend ever expresses concern over her children being worried about the mess- they may well do soon, then be there to give her a hand without criticism.

Sometimes the most immaculate families are incredibly unhappy and have things going on but no- one ever knows

oh goodness yes, it comes round in a circle, those with too clean homes are trying to right their world by keeping it clean adn orderly and channeling their efforts into cleaning to mask their feelings and the same with horders and those hiding behind stuff...both exterme