... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

A friend of mine lives like this with her 11 year old son.
When my friend S was in hospital myself and another friend of hers went round to do a bit of tidying.We didn't want to be too intrusive or throw anything away so it was just a matter of cleaning the bathroom and washing the mountain of pots in the kitchen.
The son came back home first and said who has been moving our stuff.we liked it the way it was.
Friend S phone my other friend to complain she couldn't find anything in the kitchen because it had all been put away in the wrong place.
We though we were doing a nice thing....never again.

f kids are old enough to be upset or embarrassed about untidy home, they should be helping to clean it up ;)

I agree with this. The kids are happy clean and living in "artistic squalor" no one is perfect, but if you're happy enough and healthy enough I can't see the problem. I think the kids when old enough will help tidy if they are worried about it.

I think your friend is an absoulte bastard and I would tell the messy friend the truth. Which is that her "friend" would risk her losing her children. Hopefully you will both drop the friend and maybe your messy friend might be encouraged to tidy a bit if she can be bothered.

*spokeswoman\8 you'd probably be annoyed if someone went to your house with out asking and moved it all around though wouldn;'t you?

FWIW, we had SW around every week when the children first came to us, we had a hen, cockerel and 4 chicks living in the dining room after a fox attack killed a load at the stables. My then teenage daughter had 4 goslings living in her bedroom, SW used to coo over them (they were very cute). There was occasionally poo on the carpet where they escaped over the top of their pen, obviously this was cleaned up immediately but was often seen. There were always bits of hay around because we have horses and with 4 children introduced in the house suddenly and what with work etc the house was generally a mess. The children used to drag the SW out into the very muddy fields and have them racing around pretending to be horses, all ending up totally bloody covered and then coming back into the house.

I think someone who keeps their house pristine may find a bit of mess offensive, chances are it isn't anywhere near as bad as you think and nothing that SW would be concerned at, you would be shocked at just what they do see, I saw where the girls came from! There is a huge difference between a messy (and a bit dirty) house and the hovels that many children are dragged up in.

My mam has hoarding tendencies and I grew up in a very cluttered, but relatively clean household. Our clothes were always washed and ironed and beds changed regularly. It didn't bother me as a child, but it was embarrassing as I got older. I would say if everyone in the household is content then leave well enough alone. Your mutual friend sounds a bit aggressive throwing ultimatums around tbh.

' I don't think she should threaten social services (although they may actually be able to help the mum) '

No, they won't! PMSL!

And yes, what if she doesn't have relatives to take the kids if SS comes? They will take her kids from her, threaten her, put her on monitoring, all sorts. That's really going to help.

Do you realise how terrifying it is to be told SS is investigating you?

Fair enough if there's abuse, but there's none here.

This 'friend' is a bitch. I'd tell her so, too.

How awful, to consider going behind her back and doing this to a loving parent.

I want to come to your house tiredoutgran :)

Children who have always lived in mess and dirt can't just start cleaning and tidying, because on the whole, they don't know how to. If it's never been modelled for them, they have no skills.

Have a look on Flylady or Good Housekeeping. There are lots of adults asking for help because they don't know where to start. How would you expect children to?

I think you need to talk to your messy friend, and just see if you can persuade her to at least have a semi-clean kitchen and bathroom.

If it's like this social services will be interested: yepwecan.co.uk/uploads/2010/04/messy-house-540x397.png

But if it's like this they won't be:
saturateonline.lcbcchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Messy-House-300x225.jpg

I think both of you need to keep your nose out!

I have a very good friend like this. She is SP, works two jobs and is a super mum. She has three kids who are all lovely and happy. Her house is like a jumble sale.

I would never dream of calling her out on here or trying to garner support of strangers on how to tackle her problem. If a friend bad mouthed her to me I would tell the friend to keep her fucking nose out.

I'm shocked at how many people think it's ok to tell some else to clean their home!

I don't think SS is the answer here; it's a bit extreme. However, it is very unfair on the children to have to live in a squalor. Unwashed dishes, piles of laundry and things that have have lying round for a year and so much utter that you can't sit down or get into some rooms sounds like a terrible house for a child to live in. Clutter is fine; filth is not. Why do people find these things so hard to deal with? I don't understand. Basic ceanliness and simple hygiene is one of life's necessities.

Trying to make time for animals, children whilst making a living through being creative is bloody hard. I'd say offer to help her if she looks like she may be struggling but otherwise leave her be.

Threatening with SS is absolutely abhorrent btw.

Well some one better call the as as I have a sink full of dishes from this morning, pile of washing on the floor, piles that need putting away. If you can't sit down , move it!

I've seen filth in a home, cat shit rolled up in a babies vest maggots in living room mouldy sick , mouldy fridge , used sanitary towels , mould up walls, shitty nappies The op hasn't described any of that, the only thing is bird shit, which my neighbours parrot routinely does!

Get your judgey pants off!

It sounds like the house is clean enough and they are all happy. Tell your friend to leave well alone. Out of interest, what's her house like?

Expat - don't be silly. SS obviously wouldn't take kids into care in situations like this. They might be able to help the mum to learn about keeping her home to a more hygienic standard though or accessing support she might need to enable this.

I think she sounds like a creative parent with more interesting things to do then be a slave to cleaning and tidying. Some people seem to obsess about having a perfect house - my parents spent so much time on the house they rarely interacted or played with us. As long as nappies/sheets are changed, the kids are being fed and not getting food poisoning, the kids are getting lots of attention too, it's fine.

Taking children into care is always a very last resort for SW. We would rather work with families to solve whatever issues there are. I don't think, based on what OP has described that those children would be taken into care unless there were many other issues (drugs/alcohol/MH/violence etc). However without having seen the house it is hard to say. It does sound though that it is not clean enough because OP says it smells bad and the toilet is grim - both red flags to me.

It costs a lot of money to have children in a foster placement and agreement has to be got from service managers and you need to have a really good case for needing a placement.

When i talk about children going to relatives in these cases it is entirely voluntary and done in agreement with the parents.

Ghoul- have you bothered to RTFT?

Several of us have been in that situation and have already confirmed that the SS are far far far more likely to take kids into care (or at least threaten to) than offer any practical help or emotional support.

If you think the SS are gonna turn up on the OP's friend's door-step with a matronly bosomed Kim Woodburn alike to help her clean up, then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Having said that, I also think it's a bit much to try and pretend there isn't a problem. There is an entire room which is unusable and animal faeces in food prep areas. It's serious level squalor.

Could you get her to pay for a cleaner if she won't do it herself?

Depends, if the children are being well looked after then fair enough. For me it's when it effects their well being and health. I grew up in a household which stank, was filthy and always had fleas from my mum taking in stray cats, our beds didn't have sheets/pillowcases. Didn't have any health problems from it but it did affect me quite a bit. When I was older I tried to clean as best I could. It got me down as no one else would. I was embarrassed and was hardly at home. I don't live in an immaculate house but it's clean, hardly any clutter. I don't want my children growing up in that sort of environment.

NHS information on causes, symptoms and treatments of hoarding with advice on how to support people here.