... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

very unlikely that ss would remove her children for this

I have a similar friend, her and her dh are hoarders and the house is grim, but they are fab parents, the child and parents are always clean and tidy in themselves but the house is terrible, my dd loves it there, I do wonder about her son though as he has chest infections all time and I always think the dirt and dust cant be helping that. she grew up in the same kind of house and she was very close with her mum and it was the place to be as teenagers. Her ds always runs mad up and down our living room when they visit, I always wonder if its because he cant move about at home, they have a walkway through the piles of stuff.
live and let live I say, I love my friend and her family and they know if they ever need a hand with a clean up I will be there, in the meantime as long as the cup the tea comes in is clean it doesnt bother me.

I grew up in a messy chaotic house(s) and now live in a messy chaotic house. I actually lay awake unable to sleep this week because. Was worrying that someone might decide my house was a death trap and take m children away even thought know, from having a mum who was a social worker, that this kindlf thing doesn't happen just because a house is messy.

The difference between me and your friend appears to be tha the state of my house gets me down while the state of hers doesn't seem to bother her.

You ask if you should be concerned. More important is the question ARE you concerned. Your other friend seems to be and it is her opinion that would seem to matter more, given that she sounds like she is close to involving SS.

If someone came to my house and acted like msAsprey I would be mortified.

Social services won't get involved unless there are other issues. However, this sounds seriously dirty as opposed to just messy and I don't believe it's ok, or fair on the children. Not much you can do though.

DS1 aged 3 had a nightmare. He was crying and crying and crying. When he finally calmed down enough to tell me what it was about, he sobbed: "but you don't UNDERSTAND-A-AND!!! I hadded to tidy Granny's house!!!!"

God I've had that dream too!!!

Was likewise brought up in happy squalor. Can't say it bothered me much at the time but now when I go back it horrifies me.

I once found an ossified cat turd on DF's desk. Dating it my the above and below paperwork (including uncashed cheques for £XXX!!!) it was at least 8 years old,

fabulousidiot you should try flylady or the MN flylady thread in homes and gardens. Will help you a lot if you want get organised/decluttered and realise there are lots of others in same situation.

An 8 year old cat turd??? Blimey that's impressive - there were probably some fossilised ones at the bottom of the pile.

I have friends with houses like that and it doesn't bother me at all. It's their home, as long as the kids are healthy and happy then who cares. Friend sounds a bit bitchy and judgey.

I like what Laurie said. Healthy squalor. She makes sure the kids beds and clothes are clean. Their bath is clean. Betcha when the kids get older if it bothers them, she will tidy. No one else's business but theirs.

A few weeks between clean sheets sounds a bit rank, tbh.

There are loads of threads on here where sheet changing ranges from obsessive daily changes to several weeks between changes. It's hardly the end of the world.

Hoarding is a recognised mental/emotional health problem nowadays I think. Maybe find out more about it and if things fit together, broach it gently? It would be awful to upset or offend what sounds to be a good friend and very nice person and mother. I grew up in a pretty messy enviroment (I think perhaps my mother was depressed) and it cultivated a very unhealthy sense of shame in me. Do you think the kids are being affected?

i would have thought hoarding was more a symptom of existing mental health problems.

My local ss would he interested.

I say this because I was similar to your friend, my tep sister phoned ss, the sw said my children couldn't remain in my house and if I couldnt find someone to have them they would have to go into temp care :(
My mum had them, sw came back after a week and said dc could come home but I had months and months of regular check ups to make sure I was keeping on top of it.

The state of my house was their only concern. Them and their clothes were always clean clothes were ironed and bedding changed weekly. They were never concerned about me asd a parent.

If you won't sit on the toilet or eat from the kitchen it is wrong to expect little children to do so IMO.

It sounds right on the border line whether it's acceptable or starting to impact on the children now/ in the future.

I do have an issue with the friend. What exactly ate her intentions in using the spectre of ss to threaten a 'friend'? And why exactly does she want them called? What is she hoping to gain by it?

For some people there does seem to be a certain glee in using social services as their own personal bogey man. A lust for sensation and drama, enjoying the sense of moral superiority, and all under the justification of virtuous concern. Social services should not be used in this way.

nickname that's shocking, how horrible

miscellaneous agree completely with your last paragraph. if people make a habit of it, they're not taken as seriously though IME.

well, i guess it all depends on the kids and if they are happy and healthy.

for 7 years i grew up in THE most messy chaotic house but my god i was happy....and loved. My nan brought me up for those 7 years - she was a seamstress and the "back" room was her sewing room.....to set the scene:
the floor was littered with bits of cloth, and pins gallore! walk in there in bare feet at your peril! you couldnt hoover - my grandad used a magnet on a stick to try and get the pins off the floor....in the other corner was his woodworking corner....sawdust, wire staples, dye,.....and an open fire that was always without a guard.

the garden was an overgrown jungle - a mini jungle that i explored every day collecting bugs, beetles, toads, mice, cats, and once even a bat
social services would have had a FIELD day.
and i was the happiest child on the planet.

when my mother married this bloke she had been seeing for all of a few months she decided in her infinite wisdom to move me in with her....
that was a different kind of mess.
i was neglected and abused there. Hit, kicked and punched, ragged around by the hair or my ear, on the surface of it the place was tidy but in the entire time i lived there my bed sheets were never once changed. at one point i had just 1 pair of knckers. i had one school shirt. (worn all week....god i cringe now)
no money was ever spent on me and i ate table scraps at step fathers insistence.

which existence would i prefer? no contest.
you say your friend is happy and the kids happy and healthy?
if its just a case of her having differing standards then tell friend Z to piss off.
if the kids are neglected or in danger or unhappy then talk to your messy friend first.

i see some sights these days in my line of work - but i find it easier to accept that some people just live by different standards.
im not talking squalor - if i went to a house with dog shite all over the floor and a baby crawling through it then i would have to notify social services.
but if i visit a house thats messy and maybe not up to my standards but thats not dangerous or harmful then i shut my eyes and walk out.

im not a saint and i like a tidy cleanish house and i DO judge - i had a bit of a hippy friend who didnt clean or tidy....i once tidied her house and found a pile of dried up cat shit under a pile of washing.....
i judged.
i told her
i helped more....if i baby sat i sneaked a good tidy up in! some people would say i live in a mess - often i do - i have animals, i have pet rats, and cats and dogs, my downstairs appears to be permanently coated in mud.....
i do clean daily but im not anal about it.

upshot is you have to decide if your friend is truly protecting the kids or being a judgemental cow.

PS family still all very happy and close, so I guess they got something right.

I just think if we would not want to live there or use the bathroom its not fair the kids have no choice to.

OK they are happy and healthy and loved but they can be happy healthy and loved and have decent living conditions too...they aren't mutually exclusive.

I can;t believe Social Services would be interested; perhaps it is the area we live in but there is hardly any support for 'genuine' concerns let alone a messy house.

If the children were seriously unclean and smelly I am sure the school would get involved. Your 'friend' sounds very judgemental.

My concern would be if the children are unhappy.
atm you say they are not, but they may become so if they become known at school as the dirty family and are teased or bullied for it.

I know a few people with really properly messy and dirty houses and the kids are loved and happy. But they smell of dirty house and you cant help but wonder what effect it ultimately does have on the kids.