... to think (LONG, sorry) my friend is a very good mum, even though her house is filthy & cluttered.

[LauraStora]

My friend is an LP to a boy of 6 and a girl of 8. They're cheerful, bright, imaginative, playful kids who are fed, warm, clothed & bathed and do well at school socially and academically. My friend is fun, kind, talented (she paints and makes a living from making pottery) resourceful and caring. She is a patient and attentive mother and a great friend. I spend quite a bit of time with them and the whole family seems happy and fond and supportive.

But... a mutual friend says my friend is an inadequate parent who should be given an ultimatum to clean up her home or else be reported to SS. Frankly original friend's house is a tip. It is dirty (dusty surfaces, mucky carpets & upholstery) and very cluttered, both with permanent possessions and things that haven't been dealt with e.g. unwashed dishes, piles of laundry. To give some examples, the dining room is full of bags and piles of possessions to the extent that nobody can go into it. The kitchen isn't so cluttered but the family's chickens are often free to roam into it from the garden, so there's hay and feathers and grit left on the floor. The kids share a bedroom that is stuffed with all the toys they've ever owned from birth, so is very cluttered, and if you want to sit down in the lounge you have to move piles of books and knitting and paint sets and kids drawings from a year ago and unfolded laundry off a seat and even then it will be covered in pet hair and old mud. I do cringe slightly when I visit, and on occasions have to breath through my mouth to avoid the whiff! The bathroom is pretty grim to be honest.

But, the kids sleep in sheets that are changed and washed every few weeks and the kids' clothes always seem clean if crumpled. When the weather is warm, the family more or less lives in the garden anyway and as I say seem happy. My friend has never seemed remotely depressed and laughs off any suggestions that I or other friends might help her clean or tidy or sort, saying things are fine and they're happy the way they are.

However this mutual friend, Z, is increasingly troubled by the state of the house, and as I say now intends to issue this ultimatum. AIBU to think there's no real cause for concern?

I'd be interested to hear, if you grew up in a messy chaotic house, did it affect you badly? Should I be concerned for these kids or am I right to think they're happy, cared-for kids who just have a bit of a slattern for a (lovely) mum?

Having read some posts I find it really alarming that SS would believe that a child with a good and secure attachment to their parent will be better off in a clean house with foster parents with whom they have no previous relationship. Isn't attachment theory part of their curriculum?

If kids are old enough to be upset or embarrassed about untidy home, they should be helping to clean it up ;)

As a SW myself I have been in many disgusting houses and I have asked that children go and stay with relatives while the house is cleaned to an acceptable standard. If there are no other issues then I would be satisfied with that. I am not talking getting the house to showroom standards just a clean hygienic kitchen, clean bathroom, clean bedding and no animal faeces in the house. There is a very fine line between acceptable grubby and squalid and it sounds like this house has tipped over that line.

I would perhaps tell your friend that you think someone might report her to ss and ask if you can help her to get it to an adequate standard just in case.

Noone is expecting her to give her kids away..just to clean the house up a bit.

Can't answer for SWs soundeven, but it definitely is for health visitors

soundevenfruity I can speak for SW and attachment theory is a huge part of the course. That is why in a case like this i would ask that children stay with relatives for a short period if possible just to allow the family time to do some cleaning. Even in the most severe case i ever saw of a house in a bad state, the child went to stay with a relative.

little - as a SW can I ask you if you would actually visit someone's home in this example - ie: no concerns about the childrens' welfare, just the fact that they live in a 'messy/dirty' home?

I recently reported a case to SS where I was desperately worried about a possible issue of abuse/neglect (young girl living with an alcoholic male with serious MH issues -no other adults in the home) - I hated having to 'report' the case but was told there was insufficient 'evidence' for a SW to visit .

ragwort I think it can vary from LA to LA and even different area teams have different criteria for visiting. Checks would be done with the school and HV prior to any visit to see if they have any concerns. If the children are young the HV might do a visit to check what the house is like. Often there are many other concerns besides a dirty house.

In this case it sounds like there are no other issues so a visit may not be done but i know in the teams i have been in we would probably have popped in unannounced when out in the general area doing visits.

The help her clean it! Call SS? I'd tell this so-called friend where to go and boil her head.

I think she said she won't let them help her clean it.

Then leave it. Call SS? Some friend!

I would also offer to help her clean it. She sounds like a great mother but a v bad cleaner.

I would approach it from the angle of her kids - untidy but loving home great, unhygienic to the point it smells and guest don't eat or sit on the toilet not so great. Maybe help her get back to a reasonable level, basic clear out, clean out the animal shit and mud. It doesn't have to be a show home just back over the line from squalid (which it sounds like it's crossed)
How old are the kids? To be frank my sister was a bit like this and it was when her 8 year daughter started to clean things up that she realized it had gone too far and very quickly changed. Her house is now untidy but clean whilst my niece's room is spotless!

Ultimatum woman X needs to get a hobby, and/ or a job.

I hope that LP mum finds a new friend,

and someone is honest enough to let her know that someone she thinks is a friend is about to do her over.

What a strange way to behave, not just chat with a friend about concerns,and offer help , but organise an ambush, this is not done out love or kindness.

She wont let them help.

Not saying I would be running to SS but people are missing this point.

my DD is 13 - she will not sleep over at one of her friend's houses because she was "disgusted by the filth" , the one and only time she did she came home and brushed her teeth as she could/would not use their sink.........and this was despite being knee deep in clutter in her own room

she may find her kids will miss out if it carries on....

Next time you go round to visit ,pretend you've seen a rat in amongst the junk and then offer to help her clean it , let's face it if its that bad there will be rats eventually.

For all those who say "It's her house"
"Help her clean it"
"There's worse than a bit of squalor"

My mum was THE untidiest person alive ( we did loads indoors as did my dad but it didn't help, it seemed to make things worse in fact)

"It's her house" but it's not just HER that lives there. This affects her DC. And any visitors.
I couldn't have friends over unless I gave at least a weeks notice.

"You only tidy up if you want someone over"
But if we tidied she wouldn't let us throw anything out

And a couple of times I spent all Saturday evening cleaning the kitchen...and it became MY job. But 24 hours later, it was back to it's usual state.

I cooked a huge % of the meals. Mum went off to Church "I'm having my Sunday Dinner cooked" and the other churchgoers probably thought "how lovely. what a treat". But this wasn't a one off.

So it's not easy to help someone. Often they don't want the help. And it's a thankless task.

But every birthday/Mothers Day / Christmas if you asked her what she wanted it was "A tidy house" . head/desk

And her "We're having a Get Tidy Campaign" - that was her dragging everything out of cupboards onto the floor and leaving it there

It sounds horrible for the children and not just a bit untidy. I think the concerned friend has a point. I don't think she should threaten social services (although they may actually be able to help the mum) but I would try to insist that they let you help her clean and sort the house for the sake of her DCs. The fact she seems cheerful doesn't mean that the state of the house doesn't get her down when she's alone / just with the kids.

What if there are no relatives that live in the same area, i.e. near children's school? Would children be better off in a clean tidy house with strangers? What if relatives' house keeping standards are also below SS's ones?
Does she have enough storage because it's impossible to tidy up if there is nowhere to put away stuff? Do children have playdates?

Completely agree with quoteunquote.

70isalimit I'm wondering if you are my sibling....have texted
If you are...I agree, it was utter shite and far too much stress to put on our shoulders. I think the morning I found a mouse dropping on the pillow, beside the youngest's head when I woke her, was the point that I disengaged from the house and DM.

YABU to think children should have to live in a house where you don't even feel comfortable eating the food or using the toilet. I think your other friend threatening social services is excessive but something has to change.

70is you are NoT my dsis haha! Your house sounds a lot like ours did and it was horrible. Personally I think it was a sign of our mothers mental state, though of course this isn't always the case. The craziest part was that many people thought she was the perfect mum because she seemed so loving and maternal to them and would say things like 'I have a messy house because I spend all my time loving my children'

THe friend threatening SS sounds like an absolute cow. There is a point when a messy house becomes a bit too messy ie smells, rats, illnesses or the DC being singled out at school, but it doesn't sound like this one's that bad.