AIBU to feel annoyed when it appears that a vaginal delivery is an "achievement"

[walkie]

Sorry for the rant, family member has just had second child, and other family members are repeating "amazing" "she did really well" "she only needed gas and air" "it only took X hours". I can't help wanting to say, well, I didn't exactly choose c-section & various other complications - I hate that this feels like somehow her natural delivery is more "worthy" than any other routes? There are no A*'s in childbirth (or have I missed something?)! (This is really just about me & how I feel - I know the most important thing is that mum & baby are safe & well.)

And blueshoes, I hope that's a joke. Otherwise why would you make such an anti-woman remark? Vaginas are designed to push babies out. It's an amazing thing, it's not something to be ashamed of, or something that's going to make you less appealing for having done so.

What a nasty thing to say, Blue!

I think the key here is tact - or lack of it (Blue )

It's fine to feel proud, but be tactful how you talk about it.

This reminds me of Futurama when Bender becomes human and does a poo "Bender, it's OK to be proud, but no-one likes a show-off"

Vaginal birth is not a fucking achievement!

The safe delivery of a healthy baby is and I can't stand it when Mothers decline interventions because they want to feel proud of themselves.
Seriously? You would put your child's health at risk so you can pat yourself on the back and brag at Mum and Baby group? Some fucking Mother you are!

My views are probably stronger than that of a 'normal' persons because of my job. All to often I have seen terrible things happen when women have swallowed this crap that is peddled that all you need is a bit of lavender oil and some encouragement.

Don't get me started on the whole 'no pain relief thing either'. I find it as impressive as somebody saying 'I stood on a plug every five minutes for 10 hours- didn't even need an aspirin'.

Don't be cross with women who have "swallowed this crap that is peddled" - how's a first time mum meant to know any better?

Be pissed off with those who pedal it.

Oh I am! Most midwives are great but some definitely need a slap and some further training!

What I don't understand though is why more mothers don't do more research into birthing options and associated complications etc. For most people it will be the most serious medical event in their lives, yet they come in not knowing very much thinking 'everything will be fine'.
I don't think you can blame that on NHS/Midwives etc.

Fear, probably.

"Don't get me started on the whole 'no pain relief thing either'. I find it as impressive as somebody saying 'I stood on a plug every five minutes for 10 hours- didn't even need an aspirin'."

THIS!

I think its pretty unfair to say that women refuse interventions because of pride - there are a variety of reasons why including those that have done research into interventions and made the safest decision they can make based on their personal circumstances,

inpursuitofoblivion - the problem I'm having is knowing where to go to research into birthing methods and interventions? Google brings up all sorts of things and it's knowing what to trust and what to discard? So many articles are identified that it overwhelms me to the point I just close it all down and tell myself I'll look again later....

Writerwannabe that is a fair point. There is a lot out there that looks kosher but is actually just some dick head pretending they have a clue.
I also find the NHS choices websites a bit wishey-washey when it comes to providing genuine hard facts and information.
The best places to look are actually medical libraries. Most Hospitals have them and the public can go in. I would also recommend talking to consultants (both anaesthetic and obstetric). I don't want to sound like I'm Midwife bashing, but they really don't have all the answers and the amount of times I have heard them give misinformed or just downright bad information is depressing.

Thanks oblivion - my Obstetrician has left me the option of either a ELCS or planned induction with epidural in place from the get-go and see if I can have a VB. I see pros and cons to both options but it would be nice to have some hard evidence to read. I'm seeing her again in just over 3 weeks to discuss it further but it would be nice to have an informed choice in my mind.

Happy talk why do you think we offer interventions? It isn't because we have bugger all to do and just hate to sit on our arses, being paid to read 'chat' and 'love it'.
We don't need to chase the work and if we offer an intervention it's because we believe (after spending years at university and first hand experience) its the safest thing to do. What possible reason could you have to suggest a Mothers own research would be safer?

Regarding the research into birth options, complications etc.
Yes it would be great to arm yourself with the info but it is overwhelming and if you're a first time mother, realistically you have little idea what to start believing or discrediting as writer said. Even second + labours, ladies still aren't aware of all the facts.
I know I wasn't.

I don't want to sound like I'm Midwife bashing
You don't and neither am I but I think that they should provide this info honestly and realistically.
I remember with my first (19 years ago) being gently informed what an episiotomy was - not why one could/should be performed. No info regarding the effect of pain relief on my baby. Rubbish info about pre-eclampsia it was pretty shoddy really.

Vaginal birth is not a fucking achievement!
This :) I'd describe it as a relief not an achievement.

I also don't get how anyone would refuse an intervention.
E.g - Baby becomes distressed in the birth canal and must be helped out.
Midwife says a forceps delivery is needed to save the baby.
Would some people refuse? and on what grounds?

I personally wouldn't, I may not want a forceps delivery but I'd be inclined to listen to a qualified professional.

But it may be that a woman is offered the intervention as an option and asked to decide - then there'd be a problem if she wasn't fully informed.

e.g. episiotomy or risk tearing

It's total bollocks and absolutely the luck of the draw.

Don't know why I'm posting again, but just wanted to say that I didn't have anything but G&A with DS2 this wasn't because I wanted to feel proud of myself but because I felt that the morphine based options available had had a negative impact on BFing with DS1 and I hated the feeling of being out of it and I just can't cope with the idea of not being able to feel my legs or the risks of being paralysed (not that their large but my fear is a big one).

What I feel about this is as valid as any other persons concerns about childbirth, so fuck off with the being rude about women who don't want any pain relief.

I remember back to my birth plan, I wanted to be the perfect earth other, starting with a simple delivery with no drugs a 'May consider gas and air'.

I won't bore you with the details but ended up with an emergency C section and all the drugs that entailed, followed by complications of the epidural.

I still now am bitter to have not had the birth I wanted. I still don't feel like I gave birth and she was separated from me by a surgeon. I felt inadequate and still haven't found peace with it 11 years later.

I would also say its worth looking at cultural attitudes to CS and VBs around the world. The difference in how they are perceived is utterly astounding. The British attitude to childbirth is very different to even our closest and economically comparable neighbours. And even where healthcare is paid for in similar ways to us - the arguments about commercialism of healthcare don't stack up as much as you think when you look at who makes money out of maternity.

Tbh to me it just says that a) there really isn't a lot in it, in terms of which is 'better' or b) the research we have is either very limited or very poor or c) a combination of both.

And no it really doesn't help that NHS choices is utterly useless. The statistics on it are actually very meaningless if you scratch them and have a look under the surface. They leave out so much crucial information. For example its all very well seeing that the likes of Edgeware having one of the highest rates of uncomplicated vbs. If you don't understand their booking in procedure and highly selective choice of patients you really do get a distorted picture. Isn't it strange that their nearest neighbour CLU has one of the highest rates of CS going? Yet the number of times the figures Edgeware 'achieves' is held up as something to aim for, without looking at what they are really doing.

Policies between hospitals are incredibly different and they just aren't publicly available a lot of the time. And that is really affecting the care that women get and therefore also the experience they get. Many Trusts are currently adopting policies such as a pro-vbac stance or blanket no material request policy - rather than tailoring care completely to the individual. I fail to see how this benefits women if they are unable to gain access to this information before you make a choice about which hospital you go to. If indeed you have the luxury of choice. Yes, if you wanted a Vbac, thats great but not so great if you are pressured into it. Equally blanket maternal request bans miss the point completely about why women are making a decision to have major surgery.

Its something that needs to be stopped. The lack of transparency about the extent to which politics are affecting the choices that women have available to them to quite shocking.

Sorry threads like this make me really angry.

Childbirth is hard work, a woman giving birth deserves so congratulations on getting through the process.

What are any of you who are being so negative about other people's choices getting out of voicing these opinions? Can you only make yourself feel good by doing other people down?

Msmoss nobody is being rude about your choice to refuse pain relief - it's about the women who choose to wear it like a designer handbag.

Just to be clear - in the medical world interventions and pain relief are two seperate things. They tend to be used as synonyms on here but that's not how I mean it.

InPursuitOfOblivion - what is your job out of interest? Spoke recently to a barrister specialising in professional negligence and he was critical of hospital advising his wife to try for vaginal delivery of twins. Not sure what exact circs were though.

msmoss- I don't think anyone could seriously disagree that every woman who gives birth should be congratulated.

I have a bit of a fear of epidurals so am planning not to have one again the second time (didn't the first). However, that is not so much a matter for congratulations as preference. Also, I do want to give birth in as short a time as possible, and do think it's worth doctors pointing out that epidurals could make things take longer and be more complicated.

However we should also think about what would happen if men gave birth. Bet they'd be far less emphasis on trying for natural birth, epidurals would be given immediately to anyone who asked for them, and c-sections would be available on demand. And don't get me started on the post-birth care that men would (rightly) insist on...

Women are very easily fobbed off with idea that they should be refusing medical help imo.