to have expected this woman to remove her tantruming child?

[musicboxwoundbyakey]

Went out for Sunday dinner with two friends. They were sat next to each other and I was sat opposite so my chair was in the middle (not sure if that's completely relevant but don't want to drip feed)

We were sat on a higher tier of the restaurant (3 steps). A woman with 2ish year old (could have been a little younger) walked up with a friend and her baby when her ds started to throw a huge tantrum and dropped to the floor right next to me.

As my chair was in the middle and not on the edge he really was right next to me screaming and crying and she left him there for a good few minutes and went to sit down before picking him up.

Now I was in a family friendly restaurant and don't care about children throwing tantrums or crying (it's expected) and with a tantrum its usually best ignored but I think in this situation she should have been quicker to pick him up and remove him from our table?

I think she should have moved him as he is her responsibility not yours.

however don't think I'd be that bothered in your shoes.

OMG -the poor mother maybe just got it wrong ...dealing with an average 2 yo - like we all do sometimes...
And it was a 'family friendly' restaurant - not a Mitchelin star one
Best way of dealing with a tantrum is to try and walk away and ignore ...usually over in seconds...
But if not over in less than 2 mins you have a dilemma ...go and move child and set it off again - and teach it that if it goes on long enough it will get the attention - or leave it and feel mortified and at a complete loss..
Who said take child outside, then into the car and if it didn't stop just go back and pay up - Not a good idea to leave them - I have locked my tantruming DD1 in the car more than once - then she realised she could open the windows -if I hadn't been stood there she could have easily fallen out...head first.
I am speaking as someone whose DD1 (who had been a nightmare all day) had a complete melt down in a shop (not a small naice shop, a big one -like a really big woolworths or poundstretcher etc) - lying on the floor screaming. Long story but she had run off and stopping her caused the tantrum - I don't think I could have got her, pushchair and shopping out of the cluttered shop. Just as she was calming down, a young man who worked there told me to leave as it was disturbing the other shoppers...which set her off again. (I'm afraid I asked if he thought he could do any better? etc ). When she had calmed down (again) as I went to get pushchair and shopping from where I'd had to leave it I apologised to two women who worked there and said we were leaving straight away..they told me me not to be silly, the guy shouldn't have asked me to leave, we've all been there ...at which point I burst into tears...
Could I have done any better? Maybe I don't know ...Did I get it 'wrong' - probably
I do know I really didn't know what else to do ...and inside I was dying with embarrassment, frustration, despair....
DD1 never did it in a restaurant - nearly once in a cafe but I managed to head it off ...
DD2 never tantrumed so I guess some people don't know what it can be like when you have a DC prone to them ...
Maybe OP you could have tried to distract him? (I used to love old dears in supermarkets doing this ...) -or just show some understanding ...
(And I have been praised for how well my DCs behave too...I don't let them run riot and disturb others ...just sometimes these things happen...)

I agree, unlucky, we all get things wrong sometimes and should cut one another some slack about fairly minor stuff.

Let's face it, we've all had moments where our children have been in an impossible tantrum and there's nothing you can do apart from remove them as quickly as possible.

DS2 (3) had a HUGE one in JL before Christmas. We were picking up a birthday present from the toy department and he wanted something, I said no...he went crazy! He screamed without stopping all the way through the shop (several floors), into the car park and in the end I had no choice but to put him into the car and close the door. You could still hear him even then!

Did people stare? You bet they did. Did they think I was a terrible mother? Probably. I had tried talking to him, reasoning with him, distracting him, everything but giving into him. Nothing worked. All that was left was to stoically march him out of the shop trying not to look anyone directly in the eye.

Sometimes there's nothing you can do!

It is the high pitched screeching..drives me mad.I am ancient with a grey bun(think the Grimm brothers' witch)Luckily also very supple still..barre excersises daily.

I deal with this EVERYWHERE by doing the splits ,hitting the floor next to the tantrummer and rolling and tantrumming myself for a second or so. Then I walk off!

Immediate awe and peace.

Gotthemoon....

Sorry unlucky - I wasn't clear - I would bring tantrumming child back in with me when paying up. Yes, it would be annoying for other diners for the limited time it would take me to pay, but better that than sitting for the duration of the meal: hopefully everyone would realise it was in everyone's best interests to make it a speedy transaction.

Yes, this might exacerbate the tantrum if the child wanted to stay, but IME 2 year olds aren't that bothered about the luxury of being in a restaurant with a load of adults, where the food is unfamiliar and they're expected to sit still for ages.

I do agree about cutting the mother some slack though. We all have our bad days, and I've been reduced to tears before on receiving "helpful" tickings-off from strangers about minor (really minor) infractions.

We didn't EVER take under 5s to a restaurant. No fun for us, no fun for anyone else.

Of course it depends whether the tantrum was 1 minute or 10 but if it was 10 I wouldn't have been very happy OP and I wouldn't be rushing back to the restaurant.

My DSis has SN so I have been used to being with her and her friends all my life. Never has anyone upset another member of the public that I have been aware of. It is all about being considerate to others.

What Miaow just said ^^

exactly Miaow

there is a big difference if it's in a supermarket, park etc where it wouldn't bother me and I might actually offer some help - compared to a restaurant where you need to take the child ou not let it continue to tantrum next to a stranger.

Tailtwister - doubt many people were thinking you were a bad mother in JL. Toddlers have tantrums in shops allot, and have to be carted out, with the noise traveling all through the shop, with most people seeing you hurrying on with your shopping and back to the car with sympathetic eyes.

If, however, your DC was having their tantrum in the coffee shop at JL, rolling round folks feet, while you were getting on with your coffee - i doubt you'd get the same sympathy.

No one on this thread has said kids should never tantrum. It's how it's dealt with that matters. And where you are dictates how you deal with it.

Why should someone be made to do 'demonstrative' parenting when it might go against the well-being of their child or better still prolong the agony for everyone.

My 18month old was inconsolable with his teething one weekend. I suspected ear ache and constipation. After 24 hours of screaming with no effect of medication I stuck him on the bus to the nearest OOH. He screamed and screamed and the bus was stuck in traffic. Every time I attempted to engage with him, give him a toy/food or pacify him he acknowledged my attention by upping the volume, screaming louder and becoming violent with whatever he could reach from his buggy.

In the end I had to ignore him and so averted my eyes to and turned on my phone to figure out the right bus stop to get off and to locate the nearest pharmacy to pick up any prescription we were given.

I had comment after comment from people on the bus.

'Why you no care about your baby?
'Get off the bus woman, we shouldn't all have to listen to that'.
'I'd give my child a smacked leg if he ever behaved like that'
'What the fuck is wrong with him?'
'You should be ashamed of yourself, texting whilst your baby is so distressed'.
'I should report you to social services'.

It wasn't just one person but a whole band of them. I would have got off the bus in tears except for that fact that my baby NEEDED to be seen by a doctor, not be thrust out in the cold with subsequent prolonged agony.

No-one tried to help. No-one.

No-one had any sympathy.

That day my attitude changed and think now that quite frankly, the selfish society that we live in, can fuck right off with their sensibilities and their bloody intolerance.

I find it amazing that so many people are deliberately misinterpreting

"I would be irritated at parents leaving their child to tantrum and making no effort whatsoever to mitigate the disruption to other diners"

as

"I don't think any child should ever have a tantrum anywhere in public".

Very few people have a problem with children kicking off in public places when the parent takes the child out ASAP. Plenty of people feel annoyed when the parents of the tantruming child cannot be bothered to try to manage the situation in any way. The same applies to children running round in restaurants, touching other people's food, shouting/crying in school productions, etc.

It's when parents choose not to take any responsibility for the disruption their child is causing that other people start to get hot under the collar.

Every time I attempted to engage with him, give him a toy/food or pacify him he acknowledged my attention by upping the volume, screaming louder and becoming violent with whatever he could reach from his buggy.

Anyone watching should have been able to see that you had been trying to distract him Starlight and the response you were getting. Anyone with half a brain would be able see that there were no other strategies available to you.

To be fair, travelling on a bus isn't a leisure activity that you can easily opt out of if the child isn't behaving appropriately and most people should be able to understand that. The people who complained at you WBVU.

The OP is about behaviour in a restaurant and I think I'm safe in saying that you wouldn't have stayed and imposed that screaming on other diners in that situation.

vlad - just thought I'd better put that out there as a warning ...it took me completely by surprise ...it stopped being a 'safe' method of dealing with tantrums...
Ironically she did that after she had just been assessed for possible behavioural problems - I was told she was a lovely, well-behaved, little girl, I should be proud of her and I had absolutely nothing to worry about... she set off because she couldn't play with the toys in the clinic - I was very tempted to go back and get the Dr to come and see my 'well behaved' DC 5mins later hanging out of the car window ...
gothemoon fantastic - wish you'd been near me when DD1 was at that age!
Actually at one point me pretending to cry used to work - got caught by a colleague (outside work -on a country walk) doing that to stop DD1. They just hello and moved on and gave me pitying looks at work from then on
And I agree about parents not keeping DCs under control - but think a full blown unexpected tantrum is a tiny bit different though ...it can really take you by surprise and ignore them is advice frequently given - maybe that mother seemingly calmly carrying on with her own meal/coffee is desperately thinking OMG, I don't know what I'm supposed to now... I know sometimes I just felt out of my depth ...

trouble is we are all selfish... the mother who leaves the child to scream doesn't know how many people have problems with that - from a headache to an ear infection, from anxiety issues to depression... empathy goes BOTH ways...

if the child was screaming next to me in the restaurant I might have been able to cope with it (excessive high pitched noise causes me severe anxiety, culminating in vomiting) , but would probably have got up and gone to the loo for 5 min to try to keep calm... if on a bus with a child that screamed all the way - after 2 or 3 stops I would have had to get off the bus... but my needs come last when it is a child who is being discussed.. always... why... if so many kids have SN - either something has changed radically - or there is the same proportion of adults with those needs too...

so parents who get little sympathy for their plight might have a bit of sympathy for others (you would have thought, but it does not seem so on MN)

Starlight What tosspots. If I'm honest, I'd really have wanted to offer to hold him/help you but I would have not you to think that I thought you couldn't cope, if that makes sense?! You cannot reason with a toddler, let alone a poorly toddler. A 5 year old screeching for sweeties is not the same as a wailing smaller child, ill or not.

Great posts Goldmandra

I think it's hard for us to comment on this OP's situation without having been there and even had we been there without knowing more about the child. I would guess the parent thought ignoring the tantrum would be the best thing as tantrums are attention seeking behaviour. Sure it would have been good to explain this to the OP and apologise, but as others have pointed out it's not easy to know how best to handle tantrums and we all make mistakes don't we, how about some tolerance?

As for banning children from certain restaurants, hotels etc I find the idea that children should be separated from adults bizarre and disturbing. I would much rather have children around even if they are loud and have tantrums sometimes.

Some people love to complain and judge. Although I can't really think of a time when people have complained about the behaviour of my children in public, because they tend to be less relaxed out in public than at home anyway, I have had some crazy criticisms of things I have done with my kids, just because sadly that gives some people great satisfaction. Some examples:

• in a train, with a toddler who doesn't want to sit still a long time, (which toddler does?) walking with them up and down the aisle a few times, holding their hand, I was told off even though we were walking carefully together.
• in the supermarket, my daughter wanted to put the fruit on the machine to be weighed and press the appropriate button and I pointed out the button to her and let her press it. I was told by a fellow shopper 'children aren't allowed to touch that machine'. Why?

People just like to judge.

I hope my children don't ever come into contact with those posters advocating abusive behaviour, some of that has been pretty scary.

Having said all that, I agree parents have a duty to engage with their children and teach them about the effects their behaviour has on others.

I would guess the parent thought ignoring the tantrum would be the best thing as tantrums are attention seeking behaviour.

I think the point has been made several times already that it doesn't matter what the parent thinks is the best way to manage their child's tantrum. It is not reasonable to leave/ignore the child when they are disturbing others. You take them outside and deal with it there whatever way you see fit.

Unlucky - you use your common sense. Yes, advice is often to ignore a tantrum but not at all costs as in if it's the middle of a road or in restaurant, cinema etc. Is this really so hard for people to understand.

If you want to ignore the child then lift them up without talking to them, carry them out, find somewhere safe/quieter put them down and leave them to the tantrum.

You can't apply the same parenting techniques in all situations though, you have to be willing to vary how you react dependant on the circumstances.